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Kids, being kids. Some are dumber than others. I hope leadership fixes them, rather than destroys them

"You can't fix stupid"

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On 10/14/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Ratner said:

Kids, being kids. 

Knocking over porta-potties with their buds inside is "kids being kids", in my opinion. 

Personally, I want nothing to to with "kids" that want to tag a historic church with satanic graffiti. I don't believe this behavior meets the cut, and I do not want them in my country's military  

Additionally, had the target of their vandalism been a synagogue, NAACP office, or a building flying a gay pride flag... with the appropriate words that get media attention... the outrage would have been front page national news. 

These Airmen are broken. Get new ones.  We have almost nothing invested in them.  

Just one man's opinion. 

Edited by HuggyU2
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On October 14, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Lord Ratner said:
On October 13, 2017 at 1:25 PM, pbar said:

Kids, being kids. Some are dumber than others. I hope leadership fixes them, rather than destroys them

I guess these kids were also just being kids...or do you disagree?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/09/30/air-force-academy-leader-delivers-stern-speech-on-racism-after-bias-incident-on-campus/

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Knocking over porta-potties with their buds inside is "kids being kids", in my opinion. 
Personally, I want nothing to to with "kids" that want to tag a historic church with satanic graffiti. I don't believe this behavior meets the cut, and I do not want them in my country's military  
Additionally, had the target of their vandalism been a synagogue, NAACP office, or a building flying a gay pride flag... with the appropriate words that get media attention... the outrage would have been front page national news. 
These Airmen are broken. Get new ones.  We have almost nothing invested in them.  
Just one man's opinion. 
That's interesting. I'd rather clean a star with a circle off the wall than get covered in the collected shit of 300 people.

I honestly don't know if my highschool was just some anomaly full of evil hellions who found the redemptive power of age, but I've noticed that people get really skilled at forgetting their own youthful transgressions, or worse, pretending like theirs were "completely different."

I wonder how Jesus himself would treat teenagers who spray painted his house with the symbols of his enemy.

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3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

That's interesting. I'd rather clean a star with a circle off the wall than get covered in the collected shit of 300 people.

I honestly don't know if my highschool was just some anomaly full of evil hellions who found the redemptive power of age, but I've noticed that people get really skilled at forgetting their own youthful transgressions, or worse, pretending like theirs were "completely different."

I wonder how Jesus himself would treat teenagers who spray painted his house with the symbols of his enemy.

So stuff like satanic graffiti on churches was standard stuff where you grew up?  

 

6 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Knocking over porta-potties with their buds inside is "kids being kids", in my opinion. 

Personally, I want nothing to to with "kids" that want to tag a historic church with satanic graffiti. I don't believe this behavior meets the cut, and I do not want them in my country's military  

Additionally, had the target of their vandalism been a synagogue, NAACP office, or a building flying a gay pride flag... with the appropriate words that get media attention... the outrage would have been front page national news. 

These Airmen are broken. Get new ones.  We have almost nothing invested in them.  

Just one man's opinion. 

Completely agree

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On 10/8/2017 at 10:41 AM, matmacwc said:

And pretty much all gun free zones, if only they had passed a law.

Give those who are determined to commit crimes easy access to the tools to commit those crimes and expect they'll commit those crimes with ease.

I have a rule in my house that my kids can't eat candy past 9pm when they brush their teeth and go to bed. What do you think would happen if I put a bowl of candy on their nightstand? How about if I put the bowl of candy in a cabinet above the refrigerator? Or if I had no candy in the house at all? 

Edited by Vertigo

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On 10/11/2017 at 7:08 AM, HeloDude said:

Thanks--I always knew you weren't a real libertarian, just another progressive. 

So because I'm able to understand progressives arguments (not that I agree with them) that labels me as a progressive. Noted.

I guess I should stop trying to understand the viewpoint of others and only speak in the echo chamber of libertarianism or risk having others label me.

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14 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

Give those who are determined to commit crimes easy access to the tools to commit those crimes and expect they'll commit those crimes with ease.

I have a rule in my house that my kids can't eat candy past 9pm when they brush their teeth and go to bed. What do you think would happen if I put a bowl of candy on their nightstand? How about if I put the bowl of candy in a cabinet above the refrigerator? Or if I had no candy in the house at all? 

This is not a good parallel argument. 

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Completely agree

Who knows? You ever met a 19 year old who thinks they're a Satanist? Overwhelmingly awkward nerds looking for acceptance from other dorks who rebel against the status quo. Goths. Punk rockers. Similar strains.

 

I suppose we should just dump anyone who stole from a grocery store too. Or put graffiti on an overpass? Or keyed a car?

 

I sometimes think pilots are so incredibly spoiled with our limited interaction with enlisted troops, and then the ones we get, booms, loads, engineers, they are often the top of the heap. Then again, one of my previous sq superintendents was a gang banger and homeless in his youth. If I recall correctly, Ben Carson did some stupid shit as a teen. Too bad those fools in medical school didn't kick him out! Waste of resources!

 

How about the commanders, or even better, the people on this very board who have DUIs? I suppose they are better than some kids with red paint, despite being so selfish they put the lives of innocent pedestrians and driver's at risk because a cab was too expensive.

 

There's a beautiful irony in Christians treating the vandalism of a church as more severe than other non violent crimes. I'll ask again, what would Jesus have done if he caught the young airmen?

 

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Not unless he see's Americans as untrustworthy little kids and the government as our parent who can give and take rights away. 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

 I'll ask again, what would Jesus have done if he caught the young airmen?

And emotional argument likely to stir the pot, I like it.

P.S.  He went apeshit when the church was being used as a market, so I could only guess.

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3 hours ago, Vertigo said:

Give those who are determined to commit crimes easy access to the tools to commit those crimes and expect they'll commit those crimes with ease.

I have a rule in my house that my kids can't eat candy past 9pm when they brush their teeth and go to bed. What do you think would happen if I put a bowl of candy on their nightstand? How about if I put the bowl of candy in a cabinet above the refrigerator? Or if I had no candy in the house at all? 

A Snickers bar is not the instrument with which I, and most of the rest of America, will ultimately hold our government accountable to the Constitution.  There is zero parallel to a child's lack of self-control and foresight on their future health.  

 

But to entertain your argument:  Name a specific individual, and present medical and/or otherwise convincing evidence to a judge, showing that said individual is a specific violent threat to other human beings, so much so that the government is charged with stripping them of a primary Constitutional right, and I'll stand with you every time.  Until you can do that, 'Murica.  

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4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

There's a beautiful irony in Christians treating the vandalism of a church as more severe than other non violent crimes.

I'll ask again, what would Jesus have done if he caught the young airmen?

Part of it is that I believe Christians are tired of being the last group that can be maligned, abused, and discriminated against.  World-wide, and in America. 

 

I'm not a very good theologian but if these four young Airmen "took up their cross", and truly repented for their actions, Jesus would forgive them.  Duh.  

The feel-good story would be if one or all of them turn their lives around, enter the seminary, and become clergy.  Maybe one of them will come back as an AF Chaplain and be able to relate their story to other Airman.  Wouldn't that be great, LR?  https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/Story/TabId/2672/ArtMID/13567/ArticleID/13934/Former-Satanist-becomes-Catholic-leader-teacher.aspx

But save me the "what would Jesus do", WRT to the military's decision.  That's a decision for the pastor and the local congregation.  I imagine you might be the second person (right after Vertigo), to scream bloody murder if the the AF based their decision on "WWJD?".  

The AF shouldn't be in the business of offering absolution to these Airman.  It take a lot of time, money, and resources that can be used for... you know... killing people trying to kill our way of life.  And as a side note:  I'm not interested in helping out people that identify with the Satanic lifestyle.  It's contrary to what I believe are the characteristics we should look for in military people.  Just my personal preference.  YMMV.  

 

Not everyone that actually gets into the military should be there.  The screening process isn't perfect.  I'm of the opinion that these four slipped through, and now that they've been identified, they should find a new career.  

Another point:  with ages of 18, 18, 19, and 20, they haven't been out of Basic Training that long.  If they principles and discipline of BMT have already been discarded by them... especially the two 18 year olds... I believe there are some serious character flaws that disqualify them from military service.  

I wish them the best in life, and truly hope they turn their lives around.  But I'm personally not interested in putting them through AF-sponsored rehab.  They had their chance at a military career, and they porked it away.  Adios.  

 

 

Edited by HuggyU2
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6 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

Ok then, bit by bit.

Part of it is that I believe Christians are tired of being the last group that can be maligned, abused, and discriminated against.  World-wide, and in America. 

Agreed, without reservation, Christians are held to a double standard. I don't think the solution is for Christians to get the same snowflake treatments other religions get, the solution is to stop treating some religions as "off limits." 

I'm not a very good theologian but if these four young Airmen "took up their cross", and truly repented for their actions, Jesus would forgive them.  Duh.  

The pope washes the feet of criminals, regardless of their repentance. To argue that Jesus would show anything but forgiveness is silly. Now, would God let them into heaven without repenting? Different debate. We aren't arguing about whether they should go to hell.

The feel-good story would be if one or all of them turn their lives around, enter the seminary, and become clergy.  Maybe one of them will come back as an AF Chaplain and be able to relate their story to other Airman.  Wouldn't that be great, LR?  https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/Story/TabId/2672/ArtMID/13567/ArticleID/13934/Former-Satanist-becomes-Catholic-leader-teacher.aspx

Or just become a good troop. Maybe have some perspective that the apparently numerous never-done-wrong types here can't offer.

But save me the "what would Jesus do", WRT to the military's decision.  That's a decision for the pastor and the local congregation.  I imagine you might be the second person (right after Vertigo), to scream bloody murder if the the AF based their decision on "WWJD?".  

You've flown with me, and drank with me. Did I ever strike you as a someone like Vertigo? I have never once complained that the AF is too Christian, I say Merry Christmas (as a non believer), and don't think a nativity scene is an affront to my beliefs. Shove it up your ass old man.

The AF shouldn't be in the business of offering absolution to these Airman.  It take a lot of time, money, and resources that can be used for... you know... killing people trying to kill our way of life.  And as a side note:  I'm not interested in helping out people that identify with the Satanic lifestyle.  It's contrary to what I believe are the characteristics we should look for in military people.  Just my personal preference.  YMMV.  

Absolution? How about mentorship? Guidance. Training. And yes, a whole hell of a lot of Oh-Dark-Thirty tough love. I suspect you know very little about the satanic lifestyle, but that doesn't matter, because it's highly unlikely these four airmen knew anything about it either. Far more likely they were just being assholes. Now, maybe it comes out they were pulling the legs off puppies in their free time, then my opinion will change, but based solely off this, they are probably about as Satanic as the homeless people down the street are war veterans. 

Not everyone that actually gets into the military should be there.  The screening process isn't perfect.  I'm of the opinion that these four slipped through, and now that they've been identified, they should find a new career.  

Yeah, four Satan-worshiping evil-doers slipped through basic and into the same base and social circle. That seems way more likely than four morons with no supervision got it into their youthful-invulnerable-mindset that it would be hilarious to put a pentagram on the church. No, wait! Just look at those mugshots! Can you see the pure evil in those girls' eyes?

Another point:  with ages of 18, 18, 19, and 20, they haven't been out of Basic Training that long.  If they principles and discipline of BMT have already been discarded by them... especially the two 18 year olds... I believe there are some serious character flaws that disqualify them from military service.  

Once again, this is an almost laughable point. So you guys all had the core values fully internalized on day one after basic? Must have been nice been such a brilliant, thoughtful, introspective 18 year old. 

I wish them the best in life, and truly hope they turn their lives around.  But I'm personally not interested in putting them through AF-sponsored rehab.  They had their chance at a military career, and they porked it away.  Adios.  

Their chance? The military needs us more than we need the military. So far all we know is that they made a stupid decision, really stupid, that literally did not hurt a single person on the planet. 

 

So far no one has explained how their actions are worse than our many, many, many DUI veterans. Or how abut people who use racial slurs? One and done? Stealing from the snack bar? I guess the one-mistake Air Force isn't going anywhere soon. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

So far no one has explained how their actions are worse than our many, many, many DUI veterans. Or how abut people who use racial slurs? One and done? Stealing from the snack bar? I guess the one-mistake Air Force isn't going anywhere soon. 

 

 

It's not a mistake, it's a crime.

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19 minutes ago, RTB said:

It's not a mistake, it's a crime.

Sweet, so all the guys who get hit on the river walk in San Antonio for public intoxication should be gone too. And yet again, all those lovely commanders running around with DUIs. How about loud music? Speeding? Ooh, I know, double parking! Lets kick them out too. 

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I hold no animosity toward you. I simply disagree with you on this issue. 

Yes, I've drank with you, and I've fully supported your pursuits. I wouldnt have if I didn't respect your viewpoints. You are well-read individual, with a wickedly sharp intellect. I would lose to you in a formal debate. I thoroughly enjoyed the thought provoking discussions we had in the 'Stan.  I didn't agree with all you stated, but you do give compelling arguments that must be contemplated  

Additionally, I apologize for grouping you with Vertigo. Very poor form on my part.  

But you and I see this case differently.

After 28 years on active duty, I trust my intuition on which ones I'd keep... and which ones I'd cut loose. 

The military cannot have... or save... everyone.  

I hope you and I can raise a beer together in the future.  

 

Edited by HuggyU2

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