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Leadership at the 'Deid


Toro

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So I've got a funny story... My crew is coming up on redeployment time and we need to get "right finish" done. Of course our ops is too busy to schedule us for it so we have to "make time" during crew rest to get it done.

The schedule at the CC theater says 17:00 on Friday and we're free, so I gather my crew and we all head over to get this stupid thing done. We show up at 16:55, because you know if your not 5 min early... Well, the Wing/CC had shown up early and started briefing already, so we waited in the lobby. One of the shoes in charge of that joke of an operation comes out to inform us that we will not be allowed in because we are "late". I informed her of the time and she came back with "it's universaly known that you must be in seats 15 min early, so you are, in fact, 10 min late." To which I reply "If you want us in our seats at 16:45 why not schedule it for 16:45?" "Sir, you are late and I'm going to tell your commander." The Mission Support Captain standing next to her is smirking at me. Fumeing mad I walk out immediately to avoid punching a girl. As I left I get a "3## EARS huh? Thank you!" a not so subtle threat from an A1C, to a Captain. Gosh they learn early now. :airman:

The Co-Pilot got so angry on the way back to the room he went back to have it out with her (he's new and hasn't gotten the "full shoe" yet.) Needless to say, he was promply "chiefed" for about 5 minutes. We had a good laugh over it, then I took an Ambien and drank three beers hoping I would wake up in Germany post coma. No luck.

4 years more years... :banghead:

Edited by PasserOGas
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The Co-Pilot got so angry on the way back to the room he went back to have it out with her (he's new and hasn't gotten the "full shoe" yet.) Needless to say, he was promply "chiefed" for about 5 minutes. We had a good laugh over it, then I took an Ambien and drank three beers hoping I would wake up in Germany post coma. No luck.

4 years more years... :banghead:

I'd like to hear what the chief had to say to your co, since I'm pretty sure your co was an officer. And YOU should have gone and had a discussion with the A1C regarding her tone if you thought she was offensive. The reason shoes are so powerful is because they're allowed to be-- don't ever forget that. Yes you have to follow their rules, seeing as how our leadership has bought into their bullshit, but that still doesn't mean they can be disrespectful in enforcing them, including shoes that outrank you. The ROE "should" be that if you outrank the shithead shoe, you correct the issue on the spot. If the shoe outranks you, you remain calm and polite, gather identifying information, and pass it either up your chain or over to the shoe's chain, as appropriate. Even if you are in violation of the rules, professional respect still applies, even if some people think it doesn't.

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Wait- you didn't get any emails from the ECGOC (expeditionary, of course) advertising trips downtown to go bowling/ shopping/ the water park/ movies/ etc? What about ECGOC movie nights at the pool (bring your own floatie/ noodle/ water wings/ desert boy and/or girlfriend). Oh what's that? We're in a goddam futher######king war?

I wish I were making this shit up.

What a joke of a job this is

Eh. I've known for a while now we've deployed far too many people, who have no useful function in theater (or in the Air Force, but that's a separate thread), who are deployed for the sole purpose of being deployed. Guess you can't make TSgt without the "GWOT"...excuse me, "OCO" ribbon nestled between your good conduct medal and longevity ribbon.

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Even if you are in violation of the rules, professional respect still applies, even if some people think it doesn't.

My feeling is that decorum should be followed when someone junior is correcting someone senior. Praise in public and correct in private is a term I have heard once or twice. Is it disrespectful for an officer to tell a lower ranking REMF/Shoe that they should come to attention, address me as sir, and ask to speak with me in private/away from my fellow officers? If time and conditions do not permit such decorum I don't believe the correction is warranted. If what I'm doing is about to kill me or someone else then you can throw decorum out the window. Furthermore to continue to correct me in such a way is unprofessional.

Even if the offending shoe gets eternally butt hurt what leg do they stand on if they complain about me demanding an appropriate amount of respect? I believe what I'm asking for above is an appropriate amount of respect.

Edited by Skitzo
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I would have had that A1C locked up and at attention so fast his head would have been spinning. And those that know me can attest that I am generally a pretty easy-going guy.

We, as officers, absolutely must step up to this shit. It has to end.

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I'd like to hear what the chief had to say to your co, since I'm pretty sure your co was an officer. And YOU should have gone and had a discussion with the A1C regarding her tone if you thought she was offensive. The reason shoes are so powerful is because they're allowed to be-- don't ever forget that. Yes you have to follow their rules, seeing as how our leadership has bought into their bullshit, but that still doesn't mean they can be disrespectful in enforcing them, including shoes that outrank you. The ROE "should" be that if you outrank the shithead shoe, you correct the issue on the spot. If the shoe outranks you, you remain calm and polite, gather identifying information, and pass it either up your chain or over to the shoe's chain, as appropriate. Even if you are in violation of the rules, professional respect still applies, even if some people think it doesn't.

I was so angry at the time. I didn't walk out because I was "run off". I walked because after 64 days and 9+ deployments here I just lost it. As we were walking I was telling my Co "I should have told her that was inapropriate, but I probably would have been screaming it." Which is what inspired him to go back. Bad form on my part, but I'm about the least angry person I know so when I do get legitimately pissed, I get REALLY pissed so I think what I did was about as professional as I could be at that moment.

He didn't get in trouble but he had a discussion with her, and she ran and grabbed the nearest SNCO and that slimey shoe Captain and then let them run interference on him. I kind of knew that would happen, standard ops out here. No e-mail to the boss was sent... yet.

Edited by PasserOGas
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Eh. I've known for a while now we've deployed far too many people, who have no useful function in theater (or in the Air Force, but that's a separate thread), who are deployed for the sole purpose of being deployed. Guess you can't make TSgt without the "GWOT"...excuse me, "OCO" ribbon nestled between your good conduct medal and longevity ribbon.

Must go for all TSgt's.

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Well, the Wing/CC had shown up early and started briefing already, so we waited in the lobby. One of the shoes in charge of that joke of an operation comes out to inform us that we will not be allowed in because we are "late". I informed her of the time and she came back with "it's universaly known that you must be in seats 15 min early, so you are, in fact, 10 min late." To which I reply "If you want us in our seats at 16:45 why not schedule it for 16:45?" "Sir, you are late and I'm going to tell your commander."

Honestly, based on my experience with the Wg/CC over there, the best thing to do would have been to say, "Sounds great. I will wait here until the Wing Commander is finished, explain my situation to him directly, and let him make the decision whether I will be allowed to outprocess." He is a good dude, and if you were legitimately early and using your crew rest period to complete the requirement, I think he would have your back. Beyond that, it would have been a lot of fun to see the shoe clerk's reaction.

We, as officers, absolutely must step up to this shit. It has to end.

Champ Kind is absolutely right on this one. Be professional, but stand up for what you know is right. Having to do out-processing on your day off is not right to begin with. Not being allowed to attend because you were "only 5 minutes EARLY" doesn't make any sense. Throw the BS flag.

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I understood it as "I have your name and the name of your unit, I (or my commander)will call your commander when I'm done here and tell him you were late/rude."

That's my understanding, too.

edit:

Fuckit, I'm saying it......

You officers need to beat this shit down with a bat. I understand not all of you have leadership/management that has your back... but every time you just walk away from an O vs. E confrontation because "the boss will jump in my ass for jumping in the ass of the A1C who blatantly disrespected me in public", you are telling every enlisted person within earshot that they can continue to get away with disrespecting (and even disobeying) a commissioned officer. That is piss-poor leadership, and you don't need to wear your rank on your collar to be able to figure that out.

This shit has to end...

Edited by JarheadBoom
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I understood it as "I have your name and the name of your unit, I (or my commander)will call your commander when I'm done here and tell him you were late/rude."

Ok, now I get it. *facepalm myself*

The blocking of the unit threw me off... I thought he was censoring a cuss word. LOL.

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You officers need to beat this shit down with a bat. I understand not all of you have leadership/management that has your back... but every time you just walk away from an O vs. E confrontation because "the boss will jump in my ass for jumping in the ass of the A1C who blatantly disrespected me in public", you are telling every enlisted person within earshot that they can continue to get away with disrespecting (and even disobeying) a commissioned officer. That is piss-poor leadership, and you don't need to wear your rank on your collar to be able to figure that out.

This shit has to end...

2

I'm not gonna lie, I was a little more cautious in my first few years. But now that I'm a few months away from pinning on Capt, I'm definitely going to take a harder line with shoe BS. I'm not just going to go along with the program anymore. I'm already pretty outspoken in my SQ (I'm probably the only O who *does* speak up) but I'd like to say a lot more. Fortunately I lead a flight that is already pretty much on its own and is allowed to do its own thing.

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I'm not gonna lie, I was a little more cautious in my first few years. But now that I'm a few months away from pinning on Capt, I'm definitely going to take a harder line with shoe BS. I'm not just going to go along with the program anymore.

LOL. No offense, but from a graybeards perspective, that's funny.

Good luck stomping the shoes, lieutenant. Be the change you want to see in others.

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That's my understanding, too.

edit:

Fuckit, I'm saying it......

You officers need to beat this shit down with a bat. I understand not all of you have leadership/management that has your back... but every time you just walk away from an O vs. E confrontation because "the boss will jump in my ass for jumping in the ass of the A1C who blatantly disrespected me in public", you are telling every enlisted person within earshot that they can continue to get away with disrespecting (and even disobeying) a commissioned officer. That is piss-poor leadership, and you don't need to wear your rank on your collar to be able to figure that out.

This shit has to end...

We do have people that do that. Unfortunately those people also get sent home and therefore aren't at the Deid anymore (Pawnman probably knows one).

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LOL. No offense, but from a graybeards perspective, that's funny.

Good luck stomping the shoes, lieutenant. Be the change you want to see in others.

I thought the same thing. An LT is fighting an uphill battle for sure. My advice to him would be to limit his engagement to the situation at hand-- if an individual shoe is disrespectful, correct THAT instance, but declaring war as an LT is a bad idea.

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but declaring war as an LT is a bad idea.

That's part of the problem. Why is it a bad idea? No one supports them. That's our job. Give the LTs (and Capts) top cover whenever possible (as long as they're in the right). There's a fine line but we're so far over to one side of it right now that it almost doesn't matter.

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LOL. No offense, but from a graybeards perspective, that's funny.

Good luck stomping the shoes, lieutenant. Be the change you want to see in others.

Like I said, I'm one of the few outspoken Os in my SQ. My commander knows that I do not hesitate to give my opinion and I'm one of the few people who will interrupt staff meeting to speak my mind when I think we're doing something stupid.

Does that mean he's going to do what I say? Obviously not but I can sleep at night because I know that I at least tried. Ultimately I only have direct control of the 118 guys in my flight but I do what I can to make the SQ less gay. Every other O just sits there and goes along with the program...I have no delusions of grandeur but I'll at least protest when I feel like it's warranted.

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We do have people that do that. Unfortunately those people also get sent home and therefore aren't at the Deid anymore (Pawnman probably knows one).

dly it's true. The shoes have won and they love it. Do I stiil wear my reflective belt -- NO,do I wear white socks --no, do I tuck my PT muu'mu into my shorts? No ######ing chance. Dont't give in to the no-talent ass-clowns.
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We do have people that do that. Unfortunately those people also get sent home and therefore aren't at the Deid anymore (Pawnman probably knows one).

Yep, I know who you mean, and he wasn't even deployed here...he was swapping out a jet and MX delayed for the one he was supposed to take home.

He's doing alright...he still got a school slot.

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Champ Kind is absolutely right on this one. Be professional, but stand up for what you know is right. Having to do out-processing on your day off is not right to begin with. Not being allowed to attend because you were "only 5 minutes EARLY" doesn't make any sense. Throw the BS flag.

Whoever said, "if you're not 5 minutes early, you're late," is a fu%king moron!

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I suggest you print out some AF Form 341s and when they confront you, hand them one.

I did that my last deployment. The confused look on their face last long enough for me to walk away.

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Honestly, based on my experience with the Wg/CC over there, the best thing to do would have been to say, "Sounds great. I will wait here until the Wing Commander is finished, explain my situation to him directly, and let him make the decision whether I will be allowed to outprocess."

I can't even say how much I agree with Bergman. You were in the right. You showed up with enough time to meet your tasking. These people were wrong. I'm guessing they would've shit a brick if you had just sat down and waited.

I cannot imagine a wing commander worth a shit that wouldn't be pissed to know there were douchebags like this acting in this manner on his behalf.

Unfuckingbelievable.

BTW, why didn't you just walk right past them and go inside for the brief? You weren't late.

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Like I said, I'm one of the few outspoken Os in my SQ. My commander knows that I do not hesitate to give my opinion and I'm one of the few people who will interrupt staff meeting to speak my mind when I think we're doing something stupid.

Does that mean he's going to do what I say? Obviously not but I can sleep at night because I know that I at least tried. Ultimately I only have direct control of the 118 guys in my flight but I do what I can to make the SQ less gay. Every other O just sits there and goes along with the program...I have no delusions of grandeur but I'll at least protest when I feel like it's warranted.

You must be well liked.

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