Mark1 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I say a big ###### THAT to this comment. On principle, Id make it a point to NOT be ready to fly. Because fnck them, thats why. If you needed me so bad, youd kill stupid queep and let me do my fncking job. Chuck Shack. At the beginning of this mess it was brought up around the squadron that nobody would be available for DNIF coverage if anybody scheduled to fly dropped out. It was suggested that we bring a flightsuit/boots/socks/undershirt/etc with us on Mondays to alleviate that problem. No, sorry. You've made it clear that looking "professional" once a week is more important than operational capability. I'll take the cue and leave my bag at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Yeah, like its hard to have your flight suit/boots on standby in you car just in case you need to fly that day. Even though I hate wearing blues as much as the next guy---this is probably one of the lamest excuses for needing to wear your bag on Monday. Honestly, I have to disagree with that one. I've known guys (even at UPT) that were sitting eating lunch and were told, "Lt XYZ got in late on his last sortie, so you've got his 1300 flight." After looking at his watch and realizing it is 1220 and he steps to the jet in 10 minutes, he scarfs down the food and goes to prep his flight equipment. It was almost a weekly occurrence in our flight. Personally, I've taken it upon myself to ensure I have a simulator or flight scheduled every single Monday to avoid these issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C17Driver Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 like at the beginning of this thread? Yep, but figured since I've seen the memo, I didn't need to go look for it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialD Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 This is why the NCOs feel so empowered to treat officers with such disresepect. LTs are still officers. Young, perhaps, inexperienced, yes, but still officers. But because we teach both NCOs and LTs that an LT has no authority, we teach everyone to put up with NCOs pretending they outrank CGOs. The result is guys like this MSgt. This is crazy rampant at UPT bases, well at least one. As a former NCO, I would have never considered treating an LT the way we got treated by some of the NCO's or even junior enlisted. I should have been able to correct them, but I'm just a lowly LT who doesn't know any better. More like we would have gotten our balls crushed because we are "student pilots!" So push it up the chain and see what happens...which is not much because the IP's are treated much different than students. As far as experience.....most of the people I commissioned with were E-5 and above, one was an E-9 and multiple E-8/7's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsplayr Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 This is crazy rampant at UPT bases, well at least one. As a former NCO, I would have never considered treating an LT the way we got treated by some of the NCO's or even junior enlisted. I should have been able to correct them, but I'm just a lowly LT who doesn't know any better. More like we would have gotten our balls crushed because we are "student pilots!" So push it up the chain and see what happens...which is not much because the IP's are treated much different than students. As far as experience.....most of the people I commissioned with were E-5 and above, one was an E-9 and multiple E-8/7's. Wow...that E9 must have really wanted to fly really bad or something to go from E9 respect level to O1...holy cow! And that whole sentence in itself validates how f-ed up it is that CGOs get less respect than NCOs but whateva... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rostov Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Wow...that E9 must have really wanted to fly really bad or something to go from E9 respect level to O1...holy cow! And that whole sentence in itself validates how f-ed up it is that CGOs get less respect than NCOs but whateva... Expecting a brand spanking new 2Lt with absolutely no experiance or knowledge to some how have "respect" spanked to him for his rank is retarded. While yes customs and curtosy should always be applied, new Lts should understand their role as sponges they got alot of catching up to do. Im not saying we should be totally disreguarded but to some degree our treatment is warrented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RASH Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Especially since, as a commissioned officer and college graduate, you should at least be expected to know how to spell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectre56 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Expecting a brand spanking new 2Lt with absolutely no experiance or knowledge to some how have "respect" spanked to him for his rank is retarded. While yes customs and curtosy should always be applied, new Lts should understand their role as sponges they got alot of catching up to do. Im not saying we should be totally disreguarded but to some degree our treatment is warrented. 2 on spelling. As a 2lt, it's about respecting the rank, not necessarily the person. While I don't expect a Master Sergeant to "respect" me because of my vast amount of experience (sarcasm), I do expect them to extend the proper customs and courtesies to respect the rank that I have achieved. I will, in turn, extend them the proper respect that they deserve for the rank that they have achieved. And while I will concede that many have f-d it up for the rest of us, I don't think this treatment you speak of is warranted whatsoever. I haven't experienced that too much where i'm at...it's more of a salute and their face says, "yeah, what's up dude". Back on topic, blues monday seems to be hit or miss here. I could wear ABUs and not get in trouble...and i'm ok with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Expecting a brand spanking new 2Lt with absolutely no experiance or knowledge to some how have "respect" spanked to him for his rank is retarded. While yes customs and curtosy should always be applied <snip> You've contradicted yourself. Which is it: no respect for the rank, or customs and courtesies should apply? Make up your mind. This is, contrary to popular opinion, a military organization; respecting the rank, regardless of your opinion of the person wearing it, is the way it works. If you haven't figured that out yet, I respectfully suggest that you have A LOT to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 You've contradicted yourself. Which is it: no respect for the rank, or customs and courtesies should apply? Make up your mind. This is, contrary to popular opinion, a military organization; respecting the rank, regardless of your opinion of the person wearing it, is the way it works. If you haven't figured that out yet, I respectfully suggest that you have A LOT to learn. It seems like LTs in other branches get much bigger responsibilities and therefore more respect. An LT in the Army would be a platoon leader in charge of a dozen guys or more. In the USAF, an LT is just barely above a 1-striper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelzUp Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 It seems like LTs in other branches get much bigger responsibilities and therefore more respect. An LT in the Army would be a platoon leader in charge of a dozen guys or more. In the USAF, an LT is just barely above a 1-striper. I would say the responsibility of learning to safely and efficiently operate a multi-million dollar aircraft is pretty "big". Just because USAF 2d Lt student pilots dont lead platoons, doesn't make them anything CLOSE to a 1-striper in terms of the responsibility placed on their shoulders. And Boom, thanks for "Capt Obvious" remark. A 2d Lt has alot to learn???? Duh! Wheelz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxhead Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 It seems like LTs in other branches get much bigger responsibilities and therefore more respect. An LT in the Army would be a platoon leader in charge of a dozen guys or more. In the USAF, an LT is just barely above a 1-striper. That is pretty much only in the ops world. I was actually disapointed a bit when I commissioned, coming from a support background, I was all excited to lead the charge, yadda yadda yadda. When I got to UPT and was told, "Yeah, just study hard and don't get a DUI"....I was a bit shocked. My buddies that stayed in my old career field that were in ROTC with me...was a no BS G-Series CC as a 1Lt... Leadership responsibilites happen WAY faster outside ops sqs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectre56 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I would say the responsibility of learning to safely and efficiently operate a multi-million dollar aircraft is pretty "big". Just because USAF 2d Lt student pilots dont lead platoons, doesn't make them anything CLOSE to a 1-striper in terms of the responsibility placed on their shoulders. And Boom, thanks for "Capt Obvious" remark. A 2d Lt has alot to learn???? Duh! Wheelz I agree in theory, but there is something that gives enlisted types the impression that AF 2LTs aren't quite as capable and don't deserve as much respect as, say a Capt or Maj. Maybe it's ignorance on their part and/or maybe it's stupidity on 2LT's part, I don't know. I don't think any student pilot in any branch of the military leads platoons/flights/whatever while in training, but in the Marines, the pilots (after pilot training) not only fly, but they are in charge of entire mx shops (we had close to 100 folks in mine) (JarheadBoom clarify where needed) whereas AF 2LTs out of training aren't in charge of a whole lot that i'm aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriously Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) I agree in theory, but there is something that gives enlisted types the impression that AF 2LTs aren't quite as capable and don't deserve as much respect as, say a Capt or Maj. Maybe it's ignorance on their part and/or maybe it's stupidity on 2LT's part, I don't know. It's a classic case of one person shits their pants and everyone has to wear diapers. Leadership feels that the responsibility of anything going wrong falls on their shoulders, and to make sure that nothing happens on their watch, they tighten the reigns. Ultimately, students are treated like children. That attitude is picked up and accepted by everyone else, and you end up where we are today. Edited March 16, 2009 by Seriously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M2 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 To use an old axiom, it's not the rank boys, it's the man! If you let some enlisted puke challenge your rank, they will do so and you deserve the embarrassment. Instead, get it in your fucking head right now that you are an officer in the USAF, and the days of the AFROTC or OTS bullshit are over! Man up and grow a pair! Maybe it's because I was prior, but I would not take any bullshit like that when I was a butter bar. Neither should anyone else. Don't be afraid to use your rank and/or authority, it is why you were given a commission. Cheers! M2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Um, so what's the point again? That we get paid the same for presumably "less" effort than non-pilot LTs? In some circles that's called "coming out ahead". It is in my book, and I did my graduate studies the "inefficient" way (i.e. NOT by buying it online at ERAU) way before the AF came into the picture. So I know a little bit about working twice as hard to get to the same place and the impact it has on one's work "ethic" and sense of responsibility. Make no mistake, do not fall for the crutch of associating minimalism with incompetence. Don't accuse me of being incompetent when you don't ask me to perform, when really you need my statistical existence to temper your own underperformance as an AF officer. Volunteerism is for suckers (relatively speaking). If you want to make an equitable comparison, let's acknowledge the reverse halo effect that goes on in the AF when it comes to LTs. You wanna bust my chops cause I don't have platoons to lead but expect me to keep the rusty LTC on the left seat honest, all the while cracking LT jokes all day and getting told one LT on board puts the ORM sheet on yellow by default (I wish that one was a joke) , and I'm the one whose got 3x the hours flown in past 30 days over grandpa? A crappy CAPT/MAJ will always be ill-served to have competent LTs, it undercuts their appearance of leadership and they can't have that. Showing up your superiors has always been frowned upon in life, military is not an exception. They need me "dumb". Good leaders are not frightened by excelling subordinates. If the AF had a prevalence of good leaders, LTs wouldn't have such pejorative reputation. To compare flying an airplane to leading men into a shooting hell is just not equitable. Of course the Army LT will eat my lunch leading men into combat (although barring a big yellow streak in my back I bet it is statistically more likely I could be monkey trained to meet the same standards to perform his job than his statistical chances of him being able to be monkey trained to perform mine), but that has no relative bearing on the level of responsibility of the job I perform. Bottom line, you need me to play idiot til the morning I pin on double bars, then I'm EXPECTED to be a leader. Meh, I rather take naps and watch porn in my free time and stick to doing less with more 'till someone starts taking me seriously. If pinning on CAPT is their litmus test then so be it, that's their burden not mine.... I'll qualify my statements by saying if you can't get enough SA in 4 years of doing the same job to at least appear competent, then you are a village idiot in any capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slacker Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I agree in theory, but there is something that gives enlisted types the impression that AF 2LTs aren't quite as capable and don't deserve as much respect as, say a Capt or Maj. Maybe it's ignorance on their part and/or maybe it's stupidity on 2LT's part, I don't know. Maybe "enlisted types" have the impression, uh....because a 2LT doesn't deserve as much respect as, say a Capt or Maj. Am I the only one who thinks that a Capt or Maj deserves way more respect than a Lt? An Lt should shut up and color. You'll get respect when you earn it. Respect isn't payable up front. E's might respect the rank with a salute or a "sir," but they're not going to respect you until you give them a reason to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelzUp Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I'll qualify my statements by saying if you can't get enough SA in 4 years of doing the same job to at least appear competent, then you are a village idiot in any capacity Let me educate you here fella, before someone else does. It's actions such as this...hot-headed posting that proves you don't have the SA that 4 years as an LT will earn you. Take it from a recently minted Captain, (who doesn't claim to know everything, or have "Godlike SA") you want to have the benefit of the doubt that being an LT will grant you for the next couple years. Why? Because you are gonna make the kind of "LT Mistakes" (everyone does) that Captains and above are exected not to make. In the course of those next couple years, likely you will get your nutz stepped on a couple times, and get lots of great advice from dudes who have been there. This will teach you that you don't know everything, indeed you are not bullet-proof, and most times its just better to be quiet and realize that no matter how smart or talented you THINK you are, someone is always there waiting to show you you've still got a long way to go. You NEVER really arrive. My advice is to do just as slacker suggested and shut up and color. Wheelz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsplayr Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Back on topic, blues monday seems to be hit or miss here. I could wear ABUs and not get in trouble...and i'm ok with that! I saw that today and was actually kinda pissed about it. Went to a newcommers brief at my new base and it was a cluster-esque mix of BDUs, ABUs, and blues. Now bear in mind these people are all new to the base, so no one in the room should have known if it was "cool" to wear BDUs/ABUs locally despite the well known, AF-wide directive to wear blues. WTF man? I don't like blues anymore than anyone else but Jesus, if the CSAF says blues on Monday and you're not working outside or flying a plane (or some other valid excuse), grab your blues and get with the F-ing program. If we get rid of "Blues Monday," outstanding, I'd be among the first to sign on to that, but until that's the case I don't understand how approx. like 40% of the room could so blatantly and obviously be outside the regs... //rant off// Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I don't understand how approx. like 40% of the room could so blatantly and obviously be outside the regs... CSAF personal policy does not = AF reg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slacker Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 CSAF personal policy does not = AF reg True, but this might be the one occassion that I agree with NSplayr. The boss said- wear your blues. Regardless of your opinion, wear blues. This is the kind of place you can bitch about it, it should be in front of folks who work for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cap-10 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) CSAF personal policy does not = AF reg But CSAF giving a direct order (via message traffic), and said message does not violate any LOAC or Geneva Convention article that I am aware of, makes that order a lawful one....one that we are all required to follow. I don't care how you feel about the orders, it's a lawful order none the less. Follow it, or get the f@ck out! This is the miltary, not Burger King.....you don't always get it your way! Cheers, Cap-10 Edited March 17, 2009 by Cap-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discus Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 From www.thecrewdogs.com A great web comic if you have not seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theat6bisasham Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 By the way, this isn't King George's army... If you don't like the blues policy, do like me and do your best to voice your oppinion and defy it the best you can. If everyone plays "good" and just agrees with idiodic policies, then they will never change. Someone has to look them in the ey and tell them "hell no!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cap-10 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 By the way, this isn't King George's army... If you don't like the blues policy, do like me and do your best to voice your oppinion and defy it the best you can. If everyone plays "good" and just agrees with idiodic policies, then they will never change. Someone has to look them in the ey and tell them "hell no!". Disension in the ranks....that's great for maintaining good order and discipline. I'm all for voicing your opinion up the chain when you feel that something is dumber than a football bat. I know I've shot my mouth off once or twice on things I didn't agree with. But I didn't bitch in front of the E's, and I pushed my gripes up my chain BUT... once you've said your peace, and those officers apponted above you have made their ruling (in this case, to wear Blues on Mondays), its your duty to salute smartly, follow orders, and require your subordinates to do the same. Failure to do so should result in your commander RiverDancing on your nut sack! Cheers, Cap-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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