Special Ops Aviation

[usaf36031]

I ran a search and didn't find quite what I was looking for.

I'll be entering UPT soon, and while I know that it's not entirely up to me what I end up flying, I've been giving the various options a lot of thought. Unlike some, who are "definitely gonna go fighters", I have been looking for other options that might also provide an exciting and rewarding career.

I keep being drawn back to the aircraft of the special ops community, mainly helos and the specops herc's. I'm getting married in a few months and am also concerned about keeping a happy and funcitonal family life.

Is it true what they say about Special Ops pilots NEVER being home, or having to leave in the middle of the night and not tell the wife where you're going? I know that there are some Helo guys as well as some gunship pilots on this forum, I thought maybe they could shed some light on this for me.

To me, there would be no greater reward than to participate in CSAR or disaster relief ops. What kind of opportunities are out there? How should I get started?

Thanks for any imput you might have.

(p.s. If you don't know anything about this topic, please fight the temptation to post a witty or sarcastic comment and let those who do know share their knowledge, thanks)

[Mambo]

(p.s. If you don't know anything about this topic, please fight the temptation to post a witty or sarcastic comment and let those who do know share their knowledge, thanks)

Ok...

[Boxhead]

I've been giving the various options a lot of thought.

First piece of advice...stop thinking about it. Just listen to IPs from different backgrounds, and study and do well at UPT so you can be in the position to pick where you want to go.....once you get to that choice.

I'm getting married in a few months and am also concerned about keeping a happy and functional family life.

Honorable desire...however it has minimal to do with the airframe you pick. Marriage as "happy" and "functional" is up to you two. Good luck, it is important and awesome!

Is it true what they say about Special Ops pilots NEVER being home,

Never? That is strong. A lot, just like lots of other airframes...a bit more accurate.

having to leave in the middle of the night and not tell the wife where you're going?

Sometimes...depends who you are supporting

I know that there are some Helo guys as well as some gunship pilots on this forum, I thought maybe they could shed some light on this for me.

What about V-22, PC 12, Talons, Shadows, hell even Preds? Lots of people support the special guys on the ground. And that is what they ALL do, support the guys kicking down doors. Sometimes they do other stuff, but really they are there to give those dudes support.

To me, there would be no greater reward than to participate in CSAR or disaster relief ops. What kind of opportunities are out there? How should I get started?

Agreed, that is awesome stuff. Disaster relief....other airframes do that as well. Highly rewarding. Except when the Marines screw up the logistic and support side of a major relief operation (read: Tsunami in 04/05) Even with them tring to make life crappy, it was still awesome.

Get started? Do well in UPT, and be that guy that is able to pick any track he wants. You will pick up the knowledge you need along the way. Don't stress about this stuff yet. Stress about having Notes Warnings and Cautions memorized! :)

Good luck. :)

[spectre56]

I've been giving the various options a lot of thought.

First piece of advice...stop thinking about it. Just listen to IPs from different backgrounds, and study and do well at UPT so you can be in the position to pick where you want to go.....once you get to that choice.

Maybe he meant that he is researching all options ahead of time so that he will be in a position to pick anything he wants when the time comes. Just a thought. Good points Boxhead!

Sorry I can't add any more to this, i'm in the same boat.

[john]

To tag onto his questions. How would ya'll guess career progression might be for the future. I know that the community is rather small so less opportunities for commander and leadership positions. Does this mean that a lot of guys don't go for 20? Not saying I'm in to make general, just wondering? With spec ops changing in the future, does speculation even matter? More specifically related to helo pilots, how come you rarely see or hear about colonels or GOs, am I blind or are they getting out early?

[FireMission]

More specifically related to helo pilots, how come you rarely see or hear about colonels or GOs, am I blind or are they getting out early?

You mean like this guy that is about to take over as AFSOC/CC?

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7672

Or this one?

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5050

The list goes on.....

[brickhistory]

(p.s. If you don't know anything about this topic, please fight the temptation to post a witty or sarcastic comment and let those who do know share their knowledge, thanks)

1. One gets to pre-empt responses here now?

2. So if it's not witty or sarcastic, you're ok with a reply?

I'm just askin'..........................

[usaf36031]

1. One gets to pre-empt responses here now?

2. So if it's not witty or sarcastic, you're ok with a reply?

I'm just askin'..........................

That's kinda what I was going for.

Thanks for all of the responses.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Aircraft flown: AC-130

Huh?

Aircraft flown: MC-130E/H/P and AC-130U

Excuse me?

[Whitman]

How would ya'll guess career progression might be for the future. I know that the community is rather small so less opportunities for commander and leadership positions. Does this mean that a lot of guys don't go for 20? Not saying I'm in to make general, just wondering? With spec ops changing in the future, does speculation even matter? More specifically related to helo pilots, how come you rarely see or hear about colonels or GOs, am I blind or are they getting out early?

Career and progression aren't generally good words to toss around on a flying message board.

However, I know your intent and will tell you that AFSOC is expanding and there are plenty of opportunities. Cannon joint AFSOC command, CV-22, U-28, and increased manpower are a few of them.

Remember the rise of the Fighter generals in the early 80's? It's been that way ever since and it's not going to last forever, especially with the changing battlefield that we're seeing today. I think a shift is AF leadership is going to occur in the future but it's going to be AFSOC or preds this time. It's a SOF war, let's face it.

Bottom line: Career progression is for shoe clerks, go SOF for the mission.

[backseatdriver]

I'm glad that was bugging somebody other than me.

I really cannot figure those out.

What's the confusion about?

[LJ Driver]

As far as the ongoing commitments, as with everything, the answer is "it depends". Right now I am home much more than my AMC counterparts. But, there are times when my entire squadron is deployed for long periods. The leaving in the middle of the night thing is pretty much BS. The not talking about what you do or where you go is real.

[Rocker]

I'm glad that was bugging somebody other than me.

I really cannot figure those out.

My guess is that those flights were notional. Look at their bios...f-in' helo guys...I may be way off, but I seriously doubt they flew from the left seat in this airplane, and if they somehow did, I seriously doubt they fired guns. And if they had any AC-130 formal training (which I also kind of doubt in this case), I bet it would have been the most gentlemanly gentlemen's course possible that wasn't intended to produce an AC-130 pilot. Again, someone more informed than myself will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but two stars (or one stars, or colonels) don't get fully qualified in the aircraft (goes for HCs as well) or go through the full FTU. They just fly it once in a while because they're the boss (and have to fly with an IP).

f-in' helo guys... Just kidding, f-in helo guys!

[usaf36031]

As far as the ongoing commitments, as with everything, the answer is "it depends". Right now I am home much more than my AMC counterparts. But, there are times when my entire squadron is deployed for long periods. The leaving in the middle of the night thing is pretty much BS. The not talking about what you do or where you go is real.

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

Bottom line, do you think it is much more difficult for someone flying one of these aircraft to maintain a family than someone who flies say a slick, or a fighter?

[LJ Driver]

To be honest, I can't say I know much about fighter dudes' deployments. My understanding is that they have a pretty predictable deployment schedule, but you'll have to ask them. Slick guys deploy A LOT. Significantly more than AFSOC at the moment. That could change overnight. A lot of what we do is not sustainment, so there are few places that we have a long-term mission currently.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Remember the rise of the Fighter generals in the early 80's? It's been that way ever since and it's not going to last forever, especially with the changing battlefield that we're seeing today. I think a shift is AF leadership is going to occur in the future but it's going to be AFSOC or preds this time.

I wouldn't hang my hat on that if I were you.

What's the confusion about?

Are you serious?

[Herk Driver]

My guess is that those flights were notional. Look at their bios...f-in' helo guys...I may be way off, but I seriously doubt they flew from the left seat in this airplane, and if they somehow did, I seriously doubt they fired guns. And if they had any AC-130 formal training (which I also kind of doubt in this case), I bet it would have been the most gentlemanly gentlemen's course possible that wasn't intended to produce an AC-130 pilot. Again, someone more informed than myself will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but two stars (or one stars, or colonels) don't get fully qualified in the aircraft (goes for HCs as well) or go through the full FTU. They just fly it once in a while because they're the boss (and have to fly with an IP).

f-in' helo guys... Just kidding, f-in helo guys!

Right. Look at both of the bios. They were both the Commander , 16 OG, then went on to be CC of 16 SOW. GO's get the short course and then can fly with an IP. Not sure how the Spec Ops bros do the GO rides, but I would bet that they flew left seat and fired the gun, etc, at least in a training role. They do, typically, get a Form 8 out of the short course though. Somebody else will have to chime in with S/E specifics or someone can go flip through their AFI.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Right. Look at both of the bios. They were both the Commander , 16 OG, then went on to be CC of 16 SOW. GO's get the short course and then can fly with an IP.

I'm assumed it was the standard "I'm the commander so I'll be 'checked out' to fly everything" gig. Do you really think they got the executive checkout? I doubt it since neither of them went to FWQ. My real point was it seemd pretty pitiful to put that on an official bio when they clearly never logged one second of CMR time in the airplane. It seems especially unusual since they went through Rucker, never did any USAF fixed wing training and then said they "flew" Hercs. There's no way anyone under their command ever thought of them as MC/AC-130 pilots. That bothers me for some reason. It just doesn't seem to pass the integrity sniff test.

IP on board and manipulate the flight controls and you can officially log it as "aircraft flown?

I guess I could say "I flew" the Bone, Eagle, Mudhen, LGPOS, AH-1, KC-10, GR4, F3, Hawk, MH-53J, C-130, C-17, C-141 and KC-135 then...right?

Again, it smells like they are trying too hard. They should be proud to be Helo guys because that is something to be proud of. I would respect them much more if they acted that way.

[Herk Driver]

I'm assumed it was the standard "I'm the commander so I'll be 'checked out' to fly everything" gig. Do you really think they got the executive checkout? I doubt it since neither of them went to FWQ. My real point was it seemd pretty pitiful to put that on an official bio when they clearly never logged one second of CMR time in the airplane. It seems especially unusual since they went through Rucker, never did any USAF fixed wing training and then said they "flew" Hercs. There's no way anyone under their command ever thought of them as MC/AC-130 pilots. That bothers me for some reason. It just doesn't seem to pass the integrity sniff test.

IP on board and manipulate the flight controls and you can officially log it as "aircraft flown?

I guess I could say "I flew" the Bone, Eagle, Mudhen, LGPOS, AH-1, KC-10, GR4, F3, Hawk, MH-53J, C-130, C-17, C-141 and KC-135 then...right?

Again, it smells like they are trying too hard. They should be proud to be Helo guys because that is something to be proud of. I would respect them much more if they acted that way.

Understand and agree with what you are saying. But, here's another one, he's a fighter guy (retired now) so he's done FWQ, but still only flew the Herk because he was the CC at Pope and they had the "composite" wing... and I know for a fact that he never flew without an IP.

BG Dordal

You're probably right about the exec checkout thing, but there are waivers for attending the FWQ course for GO's (AETC/A3, IIRC) and waivers for GO's for the basic requirements in 11-202V1. I wouldn't say it was impossible that those things were waived for those guys. Maybe, maybe not, but your point was well taken.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

So could the chopper guys do the MC/AC-130 exec checkout without doing FWQ? Seems like a stretch.

Same as a fixed wing only trained guy going through a the exec checkout at Kirtland. Sniff test.

FWIW, I make no exceptions for Dordal but I will allow he probably went through the exec checkout. I know BG FLoyd did the A-10 exec checkouut when he was the first composite wing king a Pope. He flew with an IP on his wing but not in his jet. He took checkrides, strafed and dropped bombs and even flew a couple NVG sorties. He was GTG...peacetime only.

[Scooter14]

I guess I could say "I flew" the Bone, Eagle, Mudhen, LGPOS, AH-1, KC-10, GR4, F3, Hawk, MH-53J, C-130, C-17, C-141 and KC-135 then...right?

I KNOW you were diggin' those left hand turns in the bozosphere...I'm surprised you didn't cross flow to AMC right then and there.

[LRU-6.9]

Like has been said repeatedly here on the forums here, pick the mission you want to fly. If your want to come to AFSOC to make a career, and not for the mission, you are here for the wrong reasons. We are here to support our users, whether it be infil/exfil, resupply , direct action, ect. If you are good at your job and want to progress through the ranks it will happen of its own accord (mostly). You will make sacrifices when it comes to time at home just like everyone else flying in the Air Force. SOF and AFSOC seem to be in favor politically now, but I don’t personally expect that to last forever. Historically SOF leaves political favor after the conflicts are over. You will miss your kid’s birthdays, anniversaries, weddings, Christmas, and everything else the AF didn’t issue you when you joined, but, if you believe in the mission, you will come home more than satisfied, and I believe this to be true for every mission and aircraft.

[Herk Driver]

So could the chopper guys do the MC/AC-130 exec checkout without doing FWQ? Seems like a stretch.

Same as a fixed wing only trained guy going through a the exec checkout at Kirtland. Sniff test.

FWIW, I make no exceptions for Dordal but I will allow he probably went through the exec checkout. I know BG FLoyd did the A-10 exec checkouut when he was the first composite wing king a Pope. He flew with an IP on his wing but not in his jet. He took checkrides, strafed and dropped bombs and even flew a couple NVG sorties. He was GTG...peacetime only.

Point taken. I'm not saying the chopper guys did or didn't do FWQ. Just saying that it is waiverable and I've seen just about anything and everything waived up to this point in my career. I wouldn't say it is outside the realm of possibility. Smart? No. Allowed? Yes. I think we may be in violent agreement. I'm just not one to say it could never happen, very often.

Anybody out there know these two guys when they were the 16 SOW/CC? SEFE types? I'm sure someone was elbow deep into this mess.

As far as Dordal, I know that he did the short course and got a Form 8 with a Supervised status restriction, written into the Form 8, that he fly with an IP. AFI restriction about needing the short course complete since it's a pax carrying aircraft (could've been waived, I suppose, but wasn't). I only offer him up as another example of the same old thing and I happen to know a few more details about his particular case.

[stract]

don't forget Folkerts!

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5436

And Planert

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=6774

Lots of helo O-6s around, too. The 58 SOW/CC is a 60 driver, the 23 WG/CC is a 60 driver, the 563 RQG/CC is a 60 driver, there are some other 60 driver O-6s who aren't currently in ops assignments, our next 347 RQG/CC is going to be a 60 driver (though that's 9 months down the road). I'm sure there are plenty of 53 O-6s as well. Ignore those who say you have no opportunity for promotion in you go helos. Our wing (347 RQW now the 23 WG) has had one of the best promotion selection rates in the ops community in recent years .

Also, not all helos are AFSOC. 60s were AFSOC for 2 years and then went back to ACC. Yes we deploy a lot because we're LDHD, but it's nothing like the length of Army deployments. We were doing 60 on, 120 off, but then our community got tasked for more than just CSAR so now it's more like 120 on, 120 off. Busy, but rewarding. Getting your first save is the best feeling in the world.

Edited July 2, 2007 by stract

[Guest Rainman A-10]

the 23 WG/CC is a 60 driver, the 563 RQG/CC is a 60 driver

Think it'll stay that way once the A-10s show up? That would be cool.

Getting your first save is the best feeling in the world.

Best feeling in the world? Close.