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Benelli seems to be the 3gun standard. Stoeger is owned by them and uses the same inertia action. Check out the M3K, it comes mostly ready to go.

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On 7/15/2017 at 11:54 AM, M2 said:

I guy I work with is doing the same thing, and looked into railroad ties but said it was cost prohibitive for him.  Plus, there is the concern of ricocheting from previous rounds embedded into the wood.  With dirt it will get buried and the hole filled in, that doesn't happen with wood.  You will eventually get rounds flying back at you, that is why most ranges use dirt berms as back stops.

Use the railroad ties (or even old tires) as support for a berm......but not as the actual backstop!

Agreed, dirt is the way to go.  I started with a wooden backstop (old, cut-up powerlines) and abandoned the project.  It splintered like crazy, making it difficult to maintain and probably leading to ricochets down the road.  I ended up stacking used tires and filling them with dirt.  I didn't have access to a front-end loader, or I would have done a huge dirt berm.  Those tires, once filled with dirt, have held up like a champ.  Stack the thicker-tread tires towards the bottom, and be sure to fill the sidewalls as much as you can for structural support.  Any tire store should be happy to be rid of their garbage.  Go to a small local shop where all the jacked-up F250s get their tires and you're sure to find some beefy tread left.

 

I stacked mine about 8ft tall, and past that I saw the potential for the tires to collapse under the weight.  I drove a T-post into the ground before I started, so it would sit in the middle of each stack of tires and help support the weight.  I stacked a front row of 8 tires, then staggered 7 tires behind them to fill the 'gaps' left in the front row.  All told, I can shoot anywhere into that wall and have at least 2.5ft and about 2 layers of tire tread.  In most places, it's about 4-5" of dirt and 4 layers of tread.  I tested a 308 and recovered the bullet; it only made it about 2ft into dirt.

 

The only weakness is slower bird shot loads, specifically shotshell loads from a revolver.  They don't have enough energy to punch through the tires, so they bounce all over the place.  2rds of that pelting my shins and I gave up.  Even the puny 20gr Aguila 22LR (480ish fps muzzle velocity) punch into the tread enough to stop and not ricochet, so I think it's just shotshells as an issue.  I've moved a couple tires and found most pistol rounds just 6-9" into the dirt.  

 

As a bonus, you can drive screws directly into the tires to hang clay pigeons, steel targets, or old pallets from Home Depot to serve as a stable platform for paper targets.  If you have a larger steel gong, wedge a couple pieces of rebar horizontally in between a couple tires as a hangar.  

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Did you fill them with dirt by shovel each time you added a row, or did you stack them all, and then fill dirt afterwards? Sounds interesting...I'll probably wait and use the FEL next month when it's drier, but still sounds like a decent idea. 

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11 hours ago, brabus said:

Did you fill them with dirt by shovel each time you added a row, or did you stack them all, and then fill dirt afterwards? Sounds interesting...I'll probably wait and use the FEL next month when it's drier, but still sounds like a decent idea. 

Filling the tires as you go ensures more thorough fill, especially inside the sidewalls.  That's pretty important if you're stacking them more than 5 or so tires tall, as the weight from above is going to crush the lower tires.  I used a shovel for all of it and it was a painful project.  Renting or borrowing a front end loader would help dump the dirt in the right place faster, but you'd still want to hand-shovel/spread the dirt around the tires to ensure you're filling the sidewalls.  If you just stacked 3 or 4 tires at a time and then dumped in dirt, you'd end up with an unknown quantity of dirt in each column; when you shoot, you don't know if the bullet will impact several feet of dirt or just some tread and then empty spaces.  Most pistol rounds will sail through 4-5 layers of tread.  

 

A trick I learned on the second backstop I built (same use of tires) was that you can fill the bottom row, drive some old lumber or fairly straight branches (stripped of any smaller branches/leaves) into the center of the pile, then continue stacking tires.  The effort you put into driving that wood into the bottom tire (sts) takes up some of the dirt you would have had to shovel in, and helps keep the follow-on tires a guide for centering them up.  If you have a 4x4 in the center, it will have about 1ft of dirt in front of it.  It's going to take a lot of rifle fire before that lumber is destroyed, and even then the dirt is there to settle into the gaps.

 

After a couple months and a few thousand rounds, I found that the dirt settled quite a bit.  I just topped off the top row and let it continue settling.  I have yet to have any columns fall over or collapse, though the bottom tires do need to be slightly thicker tread to bear the weight.  

 

If I had a front end loader, some heavy wooden beams as a support structure, and a supply of relatively rock-free dirt, I'd go for the straight dirt berm.  I have none of those, and the tires cost me $0 from some patriotic folks in town.  When I go to sell this place, I'm banking that the potential buyers are as enthusiastic about a large pile of tires on the land as I am.  Otherwise, it's going to be a PITA to tear it all down.  

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Any more bases recently get the approval to concealed carry on base?  Anyone have an idea which bases are actually allowing it these days?  So far I know of Dyess and Shady-J.  Who else?

For the record, I just want to be able to leave mine in my truck.  How many bases allow that but not carry in buildings?

Edited by Flare

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Whiteman allows carry and conceal. I'm not sure about carrying in buildings though. The policy went to effect right after I left. 

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34 minutes ago, Flare said:

Any more bases recently get the approval to concealed carry on base?  Anyone have an idea which bases are actually allowing it these days?  So far I know of Dyess and Shady-J.  Who else?

For the record, I just want to be able to leave mine in my truck.  How many bases allow that but not carry in buildings?

Cannon, you have to register the firearm with SF (just filll out a form for anything you are going to conceal) and show them your conceal when you register. Has to remain in the vehicle on base. 

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Good job, lets post on the interwebs where we are allowed to carry on base and how difficult or easy it is!  I know in AZ, everyone is packing everywhere, the laws are so relaxed people carry AR-15's on buses to piss the gun control people off (not a fan of this, but legal), be careful.  Hasan WTF is his name would have been a dot if the laws in TX were a bit more relaxed.  

Edited by matmacwc

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18 U.S. Code §930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities specifically prohibits possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, the latter being defined as "a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."

The term “dangerous weapon” means "a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2½ inches in length."

Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be "posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be."

Just to note, Subsection (a) states this "shall not apply to the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law."  How that would be determined--i.e. if a state-issued license is sufficient--is unknown.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930

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19 hours ago, matmacwc said:

Hasan WTF is his name would have been a dot if the laws in TX were a bit more relaxed.  

Also, if the DoD's official policy toward active shooters wasn't "run and hide".

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At least they finally updated it to be 'run, hide,... oh yeah, and I guess fight back if there's no other option.'

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Doesn't seem like prices have fallen all that much however.  However, I have noticed whereas I paid around $2000 for a Keltec RFB in 2013, they are going for about $1200 now.  Doesn't seem like the top tier stuff has gone down in price at all though.  

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It says sales are down, prices not so much...

And it's not a big shock that would happen if a pro-gun Republican became president.

Obama (and, God forbid, Clinton if she had won) obviously helped the firearms sales with their anti-gun rhetoric, but their other actions (such as Russian sanctions) also had a detrimental effect on the industry, so they (the firearms manufacturers) really need to be careful of what they wish for!

Cheers!  M2

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Funny to look back at the beginning of this thread, 10 years later, at how .40 has begun to fall from favor after a decade.

I bring it up because in the last two weeks I've picked up two used .40 former LEO trade-ins -- a Sig P229 and a Glock 23 -- in absolutely ripping deals.  All courtesy of the trend to move away from the .40 and back to the 9x19.  Both are in terrific condition, typical police trade in stuff, light holster wear on the outside, dirty and needing a good cleaning but barely worn on the inside.

Seems like I just got done buying some great cheap LEO trade-in wheel guns (a Smith 686 and Smith Model 28) back when the "wonder nines" became popular in the early 90s.  I also followed that up a decade later when .40 became the new hotness for cops and the FBI here 15 years ago and 2nd gen Glocks and others in 9x19 were hitting the used gun stores.

Too bad those Smiths and Glocks are all long gone now, traded or sold for others over the years, but I sure enjoyed them and their budget price, and definitely got more than my money back in the sales and trades.  I'd especially love to have that 686 back.


I'll be buying more LEO trade-ins in 9x19 when that goes out of style again here in another 15-20 years.  Until then, now I finally have something to do with all that .40 brass and random .40 rounds I've picked up over the years at the range.

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Here's some food for thought:

The only reason bumpfire stocks are a thing is because they cost $60 and circumvent the NFA with it's artificially restricted number of legal to own full auto guns (e.g. M16 costs are in the neighborhood of $25k).

 

If you could buy any AR lower for $40, pay your $200 tax stamp and register it as a machine gun then everyone who has a machine gun would be on the registry. But the gun control enacted with a 1986 cutoff for registering machineguns has cut off supply (you can't make more) while the demand has increased. This is known as supply and demand. Gun control restricted supply so the price went through the roof. And bumpfire stocks aren't firearms so you can order one from Brownell's and have it mailed to your house.

I think bumpfire stocks are dumb, but no one would buy them (so they wouldn't have been developed) if you could have the real thing at a free market price.

 

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While I would welcome the "common sense compromise" of trading bumpfire stocks for repeal of the Hughes Amendment and re-opening the NFA registry, there are real problems with the NFA, too...especially for military members who move state-to-state every few years and have to re-elicit CLEO approval to keep their possessions.

We need to be looking at repeal/replace of the NFA, too, if we are going to kick that stone.  Not that the rabid gun control people (who aren't interested in giving any ground on these "compromises") would be interested in that, anyway.

I don't care about using bumpfire stocks, either -- not my cup of tea -- but no f'ing way I'm going to support some new restriction based on their use in *one* illegal event.  We don't make policy that curbs Constitutional protections based on outliers and singular freak events.

Edited by Hacker
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I don't care about using bumpfire stocks, either -- not my cup of tea -- but no f'ing way I'm going to support some new restriction based on their use in *one* illegal event.  We don't make policy that curbs Constitutional protections based on outliers and singular freak events.

Kimmel was crying on tv this time, it's serious!

Can't believe that's the 2 seconds I saw mistakenly flipping channels.

Agree on the need for a pragmatic approach vs reactionary moves.

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19 hours ago, Hacker said:

While I would welcome the "common sense compromise" of trading bumpfire stocks for repeal of the Hughes Amendment and re-opening the NFA registry, there are real problems with the NFA, too...especially for military members who move state-to-state every few years and have to re-elicit CLEO approval to keep their possessions.

We need to be looking at repeal/replace of the NFA, too, if we are going to kick that stone.  Not that the rabid gun control people (who aren't interested in giving any ground on these "compromises") would be interested in that, anyway.

I don't care about using bumpfire stocks, either -- not my cup of tea -- but no f'ing way I'm going to support some new restriction based on their use in *one* illegal event.  We don't make policy that curbs Constitutional protections based on outliers and singular freak events.

 

My mistake - didn't mean to post in this thread in addition to the WTF thread where we've been having this discussion. 

To your bolded comment above - do you have any NFA items? Because I do and that's not how this works.  Form 4 used to require CLEO approval for individuals but not for trusts. The requirements changed in July 2016 to require every form 4 to NOTIFY CLEO. 2 key points - now even if a trust owns the item you have to notify and second that individuals no longer require approval, just notification.

For PCS you don't file a Form 4, you file a Form 5320.20 to transport NFA items across state lines. The 5320.20 takes 4-6 weeks to get back and costs you a stamp and 10 minutes to fill out. The Form 4 costs you $200 and 6-9 months (really optimistic wait time) to get back.

 

Otherwise I agree with everything you said. 

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Good words.  I retired in '15, so I haven't dealt with a move under that system (and I do not have a trust).

That being said...a new tax stamp every move is BS itself...so still issues to solve for military folks.

Edited by Hacker

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17 hours ago, Hacker said:

Good words.  I retired in '15, so I haven't dealt with a move under that system (and I do not have a trust).

That being said...a new tax stamp every move is BS itself...so still issues to solve for military folks.

Poor choice of words on my part. The $200 tax stamp is a one time thing. The stamp I was referring to is a postage stamp for mailing the 5320.20 through USPS....what are they, 69 cents these days?  While your point is valid, the consequence is insignificant.

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Is anyone else a little concerned about the vague language describing the restrictions in HR 3999?  The way it's written seems that it could be construed to prohibit any aftermarket part that improves the functionality, if it improves rate of fire, of any semiauto rifle.  This isn't just bump stocks and gat cranks.  Lots of things can improve your rate of fire.

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10 hours ago, HU&W said:

Is anyone else a little concerned about the vague language describing the restrictions in HR 3999?  The way it's written seems that it could be construed to prohibit any aftermarket part that improves the functionality, if it improves rate of fire, of any semiauto rifle.  This isn't just bump stocks and gat cranks.  Lots of things can improve your rate of fire.

Absolutely.  A decent aftermarket trigger group, individual trigger springs, lighter buffer tube/recoil springs, etc.  This article nails it:  http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/daniel-zimmerman/reader-weve-painted-corner-bump-fire-regulation-gun-control/

TLDR:  If the ATF is charged with following the letter of the law, the law means nothing since the only means of mechanically increasing the rate of fire is to decrease the time required for the gas to cycle the bolt.  That's obviously not the intent.  If the ATF follows the intent of the law, the law is insanely broad; it doesn't mention bump-fire stocks by name, and opens the door to all manner of stupid regulations.  

GOP:  grow a goddamn spine, half a brain, and stop pandering to the left/emotional hysteria with useless/bullshit/unconstitutional laws that have zero effect on an evil person's ability to be evil.  

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