Air Force Heritage

[Guest markkyle66]

My smart mouth brother was talking to me the other day about Navy heritage and why he said I would be missing out if I decided not to go Gold and Blue... Well the thing he said that got me thinking was the part about heritage and how the Air Force of today seemed to be lacking it, which I couldn't believe to be further from the truth! So I was interested in starting a thread on Air Force heritage to speak of all the great 'ol tales and pictures from the old days up till now. Pretty much to remind us all of what we are working towards and doing our best to be part of!

I figured I'd kick it off with the 50's era when the Air Force was leapfrogging aviation records everyday only to culminate with the breaking of the sound barrier bye a guy who started out ground level and retired a General. Chuck Yeager.

[HerkDerka]

The more the AF tries to "develop" heritage, the further away we go from our true heritage.

HD

[Steve Davies]

The more the AF tries to "develop" heritage, the further away we go from our true heritage.

HD

So why not say what you think your Air Force's 'true' heritage is? I'd be interested to know.

[Login Name]

So why not say what you think your Air Force's 'true' heritage is? I'd be interested to know.

b/c every time we start to develop one, somebody decides to go and changes things. so really, our heritage is constant change!

[brickhistory]

so really, our heritage is constant change!

In most ways, this is really a good thing. We don't become so hide-bound that we have to do things because 'that's the way we always do it.'

Drawback is we keep having to shell out bucks for Marine wannabe uniforms or Army lite PT gear.

[Dubs]

Drawback is we keep having to shell out bucks for Marine wannabe uniforms or Army lite PT gear.

I like my Daisy Dukes... nothing makes me feel prouder than to see my boxers hanging out of the bottom of my shorts

[HerkDerka]

So why not say what you think your Air Force's 'true' heritage is? I'd be interested to know.

I'll explain in two phrases:

Old and Busted: Fight in the air.

New Hotness: Deliver sovereign options to our nation's defense through rapid-response expeditionary exploitation of air, space, and cyberspace. Total force Battlefield Airmen providing global engagement under seemless cohesion with their wingman.

HD

[Guest rumblefish_2]

New Hotness: Deliver sovereign options to our nation's defense through rapid-response expeditionary exploitation of air, space, and cyberspace. Total force Battlefield Airmen providing global engagement under seemless cohesion with their wingman.

HD

Please tell me that's not from a real AF website or manual or something. If it was sarcasm, well it was damn good...

[Stiffler]

There are some cool movies from the SAC days, but thats about it.

[HercDude]

Our Heritage:

[brickhistory]

My eyes! Aggh, my eyes!

[Steve Davies]

Wow, you guys are really down on your heritage.

[brickhistory]

Wow, you guys are really down on your heritage.

Au contraire; I'd say we are very aware of the warrior part of the USAF - see the Robin Olds thread - but the institutional BS is held in contempt.

Perhaps as a result of the coup separating the USAF from the shackles of the Army (how's that for descriptive!), then the constant remaking of the 'image' depending on who's got the biggest 'stick,' i.e. LeMay, He who must not be named, Fogleman, etc, then there is no long established heritage to honor.

Flying and fighting seems to work ok as a history.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Wow, you guys are really down on your heritage.

It depends.

Some guys are really into remaining connected with the past. Many are not. Most guys never even think of reaching back to the guys who fought in Vietnam or Korea or WWII. I'm not sure exactly why that is. It's not exactly disrespect for the past, it's more like a non-interest in anything that doesn't have to do with their current entitlements or lives. USAF airmen do not connect like Marines seem to do. Marines are Marines for life and they seem to share a great bond that reaches across generations. I was at an Armed Forces Day ceremony at Ft Snelling National Cemetery last weekend and the USMC guys from all generations had immediate and legitimate connection. They were proud of being Marines and they made themselves easy to identify.

Sadly, the same is not universally true for USAF airmen.

Unfortunately, the USAF has never institutionalized its combat heritage as part of the indoctrination of all airmen like the USMC has done. The USAF has often traveled down the sterile path of "management style" in lieu of focusing on the critical components of combat leadership. Much of that is due to the fact that so few of the people in the USAF actually do any fighting. Many are "exposed" to the threats, more so recently since we are in the middle of the Iraqi civil war, but few are actually fighting. Most airmen that receive "combat" ribbons and "hazardous duty pay" and "tax free exemptions for operations in a combat zone" are never really involved in any fighting. Most airmen never carry a gun, hear a gun go off or feel like the enemy is individually targeting them.

USAF airmen have long made a scam of collecting combat entitlements that were originally intended for real combat duty.

I think this lack of actual fighting has led to an underlying and repressed feeling of shame which is manifested by exaggerated SAFIRE reports and over reactions about things like forcing reflective belt compliance in the "war zone" or complaining about the living conditions no matter where in the world they are. USAF airman are typically very proud of their BFMing the rules to their advantage skills and they are quick to brag about it. Those traits are part of the reason the other services laugh at us and consider airmen to be spoiled, whimpering pussies.

JMHBAO.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Au contraire; I'd say we are very aware of the warrior part of the USAF - see the Robin Olds thread - but the institutional BS is held in contempt.

How many people have ever gone out of their way to actually spend time talking to Robin Olds?

[brickhistory]

How many people have ever gone out of their way to actually spend time talking to Robin Olds?

7.

And I've never spoken to Frank Luke, Dick Bong, Tommy McGuire, Harry Thyng, Robin Risner, or Leo Thorsness, but I'd bet a fair few of the USAF ops side know who they were. I'd hope so.

[brickhistory]

Today is my last day as an active duty AF officer/pilot.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

7.

Whatever.

You can talk to the people who are still alive. It is not difficult but you do have to make the effort. They are honored to come speak to whatever crowd you select and many of them (like Gen Olds) will hang around for an entire airshow weekend if you ask them to. They will definitely speak at a dining in or dining out (which people bitch about now days). They don't have to be famous or on your list to have a meaningful message.

There are many groups and individuals out there who are not famous but are all part of our heritage. We are connected to each and every one of them...but only of we think we are. Most don't.

[brickhistory]

You can talk to the people who are still alive.

We're on the same side of this issue.

I have spoken to Gen Olds and some other still living USAF warriors from our past. I've even written about a fair number of ones not so famous, but just as important for our combat heritage.

1924 'Round the World Flight' - first successful circumnavigation of the globe - great story about iron men in fabric airplanes as an example. Small group of Lts told by the boss to 'make it happen.' And they did.

[Steve Davies]

1924 'Round the World Flight' - first successful circumnavigation of the globe - great story about iron men in fabric airplanes as an example. Small group of Lts told by the boss to 'make it happen.' And they did.

Finally.

Of the first 10 or so posts in response to a request to discuss an aspect of USAF history, around 7 of them were negative in nature. It's taken a debate about whether or not the AF is down on its heritage to get someone to mention something that means something to them! That's pretty sad; especially so for a country whose Air Force should be justifiably proud of its accomplishments and progress.

Posting a picture of the man whose name cannot be uttered aloud, and complaining that the current Air Force wants to warp your heritage to fit its own agenda (or whatever), reflects dimly on your service, IMO.

If someone asked me to talk about the heritage of the RAF, I'd be talking about Albert Ball (OK, so he was RFC!), Douglas Bader, 617 Squadron, Black Buck and a million other things. I wouldn't be moaning about how the RAF has copyrighted the roundel, about how they want to charge me to visit one of their squadrons so that I can write about them, about them buying Typhoon but refusing to buy ammo for the gun, or about them deciding to retire the mighty Jag with less than a weeks' notice. That's what I meant about being down on your heritage.

It depends.

JMHBAO.

A very enlightening post. Thanks.

[Steve Davies]

That's the heritage I wanted to inherit by joining the AF, but it's nowhere to be found. I felt I came close a few times with some fantastic crews in OEF/OIF, but I think the "Marines for life" type-mentality is all but gone and I don't think you'll see entire crews/squadrons from today getting together after 40 years.

Is that not a function of risk, though? I mean, your Grandad and his buds were probably far more likely to buy the farm in WWII that you and your buds were in OIF/OEF? That sort of 'we could all be killed tomorrow' stress and experience can cement such lifelong relationships, and if the sense of impending death was stronger for your grandfather.... I am hypothesising here - I have no idea what you did and how doangerous it was, and what he did and how dangerous that was - but I am sure you get my meaning.

Good luck on civvy street.

[brickhistory]

Finally.

If someone asked me to talk about the heritage of the RAF.........

Steve,

Your post kinda pointed out what I was trying to say in my first attempt on this thread. I believe the RAF has essentially turned inward towards its past glories as it continues to shrink to miniscule size. I'm not knocking the current Brit bros, just that there aren't that many anymore.

I see some of the same trends regarding the USAF, but I believe that we continue to look forward - for a variety of reasons - vice always looking back.

[Guest markkyle66]

40 years after the war, I remember all but 2 of "the Guys" in the photo came to his place and hung out and told stories for 2 days - 70 year olds acting like 20-somethings. It was something to see. They had been doing it every few years at different locations since the war. That's the heritage I wanted to inherit by joining the AF, but it's nowhere to be found. I felt I came close a few times with some fantastic crews in OEF/OIF, but I think the "Marines for life" type-mentality is all but gone and I don't think you'll see entire crews/squadrons from today getting together after 40 years. I know times have changed and I hate to be so negative. There are lots of positive things about the AF and it has been fun & rewarding, but not completely satisfying. My biggest disappointment in leaving is knowing that the era I served with the AF in can't hold a candle to the earlier ones. Maybe one day it will - they say memories grow fonder with time!

I enjoyed your post very much. Specifically the part about your Grandfather and his friends "hanging out and acting like 20-somethings." I can only hope that when I finally graduate and commission that I'll be part of that.... as a matter a fact looking forward to those experiences is what drives me. I just hope there is more of a silver lining, as far as AF Heritage and comeraderie, than you guys are making out.

[HerkDerka]

I think this lack of actual fighting has led to an underlying and repressed feeling of shame which is manifested by exaggerated SAFIRE reports and over reactions about things like forcing reflective belt compliance in the "war zone" or complaining about the living conditions no matter where in the world they are.

Shack.

And I've never spoken to Leo Thorsness,

I was lucky enough to fly Leo Thorness between a couple spots in the AOR on one mission. I invited him to come sit up on the flight deck, gave him a headset, and sat back and listened. Top-notch guy.

HD

[brickhistory]

I was lucky enough to fly Leo Thorness between a couple spots in the AOR on one mission. I invited him to come sit up on the flight deck, gave him a headset, and sat back and listened. Top-notch guy.

HD

Way cool. Medal of Honor is one of those tough ones to earn......................

THORSNESS, LEO K.

Rank and organization: Lieutenant Colonel (then Maj.), U.S. Air Force, 357th Tactical Fighter Squadron.

Place and date: Over North Vietnam, 19 April 1967.

Entered service at: Walnut Grove, Minn.

Born: 14 February 1932, Walnut Grove, Minn.

Citation:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. As pilot of an F-105 aircraft, Lt. Col. Thorsness was on a surface-to-air missile suppression mission over North Vietnam. Lt. Col. Thorsness and his wingman attacked and silenced a surface-to-air missile site with air-to-ground missiles, and then destroyed a second surface-to-air missile site with bombs. In the attack on the second missile site, Lt. Col. Thorsness' wingman was shot down by intensive antiaircraft fire, and the 2 crewmembers abandoned their aircraft. Lt. Col. Thorsness circled the descending parachutes to keep the crewmembers in sight and relay their position to the Search and Rescue Center. During this maneuver, a MIG-17 was sighted in the area. Lt. Col. Thorsness immediately initiated an attack and destroyed the MIG. Because his aircraft was low on fuel, he was forced to depart the area in search of a tanker. Upon being advised that 2 helicopters were orbiting over the downed crew's position and that there were hostile MlGs in the area posing a serious threat to the helicopters, Lt. Col. Thorsness, despite his low fuel condition, decided to return alone through a hostile environment of surface-to-air missile and antiaircraft defenses to the downed crew's position. As he approached the area, he spotted 4 MIG-17 aircraft and immediately initiated an attack on the MlGs, damaging 1 and driving the others away from the rescue scene. When it became apparent that an aircraft in the area was critically low on fuel and the crew would have to abandon the aircraft unless they could reach a tanker, Lt. Col. Thorsness, although critically short on fuel himself, helped to avert further possible loss of life and a friendly aircraft by recovering at a forward operating base, thus allowing the aircraft in emergency fuel condition to refuel safely. Lt. Col. Thorsness' extraordinary heroism, self_sacrifice, and personal bravery involving conspicuous risk of life were in the highest traditions of the military service, and have reflected great credit upon himself and the U.S. Air Force.

Edited May 22, 2007 by brickhistory