C-21 information

[Guest Tony61R]

I am starting UPT at Columbus this October. My first choice will be C-21s. I have heard rumors that they are all going to gaurd or reserves. Any truth to that. If so when is that supposed to happen?

Does Yokota still have C-21s?

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Tony,

I've been out of the C-21 for about 8 months or so, but as I recall, the Dynacorp Mx contract doesn't expire until 2012. The speculation is/was that the AF wasn't going to renew the contract stateside...and defer the C-21 program to various Guard units (not familiar w/ any Reserve units getting them).

So far, this bears true - ND (Fargo) and CT (Hartford) have been transitiong from their traditional MWS into the C-21. The 311 ALF at C-Springs at last rumor was to be absorbed by the Guard unit there.

While sitting on several USAFE meetings discussing this issue, the EUCOM and USAFE/A1 all realize the tremendous impact that removing the C-21 from Ramstein would be. The concern isn't stateside. The overall agreement back in Feb 06 was to have Ramstein lose 3 of it's planes from 13 to 10 - which is the current operational status. I'm actually at ETAR right now on a EAS and after speaking w/ the SQ leadership, no new changes are on the horizon.

Most people guess that when the Mx contract runs out in 2012, the C-21 program will either be contracted out (completly withdrawn from AD) or that they will be handed over full fledge to sponsoring ANG units.

You should be fine to get a C-21....Ramstein is the only way to go. Yokota, a distant second.

Edited May 4, 2007 by C-21 Pilot

[Guest sgsoar27]

Just left the 459th AS (Yokota) in October....They will be completely replaced by C-12s this summer!

[pcola]

1. Who's gonna PAY YOU to learn to fly a King Air or a LJ-35? USAF. Period. Nobody else.

2. Who's gonna PAY YOU $100K/year to fly a LJ35 all over Europe as an Aircraft Commander with a whopping 400 hours total rated time? USAF. Period. Nobody else.

Flying ANYTHING in the USAF is a good choice, even if you could fly it as a civilian.

[PirateAF]

I'd like to reopen this thread to continue with the original question...

Specifically, is the C-21 AD unit at Pete going to be operational for very much longer?

Thanks for any replies!

[Butters]

I'd like to reopen this thread to continue with the original question...

Specifically, is the C-21 AD unit at Pete going to be operational for very much longer?

Thanks for any replies!

Yes, the C-21 will be around for a while. They just cut the fleet in half and sent a lot of them to the guard. The shut down a lot of the AD C-21 units, but there are still plenty left. C-Springs, Offutt, Andrews, Scott, Ramstein... can't remember the others.

Yokota did lose their C-21s. As well as Randolph and Langley

[CHS17]

Yokota did lose their C-21s. As well as Randolph and Langley

So did Offutt

[Butters]

So did Offutt

Crap! I though they kept theirs.... Maxwell is out also.

[speedy782]

Right now there are 3 C-21s at Pete, 8 at Scott, and 9 at Andrews. There are around 10-12 at Ramstein. That's it. I know the trend is that there are going to be fewer first assignment guys (like 1 to each of those 4 bases every four to six months). That is not official, just seems to be the trend. Deployments are up to 60 days twice a year. It used to be 60 days one time in the 3 year assignment. This is the current status of the plane and there is currently no talk about getting rid of them in the near future, but who knows.

The mission and trainers and other descriptions of daily activities and benefits described earlier on this board and other C-21 boards pretty much still holds true. The only changes are what I've just mentioned above.

Edited December 18, 2007 by speedy782

[PirateAF]

Thanks Speedy...appreciate the info - sounds like the Pete unit is prett small.

[Butters]

Thanks Speedy...appreciate the info - sounds like the Pete unit is prett small.

Yes, Pete's unit is the smallest!

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

"There are around 10-12 at Ramstein"

As of Aug 2006 (when I was there last), there were only 10.

[Guest Sparky]

Didn't Rainman have a funny reply/post on here responding to this thread or was I just smoking crack again/day dreaming? Where did it go?

Didn't Rainman have a funny reply/post on here responding to this thread or was I just smoking crack again/day dreaming? Where did it go?

[spaw2001]

just to put it into perspective with regards to getting a C-21 out of UPT, we see 1 every 3 assignment drops or so. Most have gone to Ramstein since I have been here. We also have seen 1 to Andrews, 1 to Scott, 1 to C-Springs.

[brabus]

Didn't Rainman have a funny reply/post on here responding to this thread or was I just smoking crack again/day dreaming? Where did it go?

Maybe it's in another thread, but it went along the lines of why the hell would you go to UPT to fly a standard civilian business jet and not be in the fight at all. That's a good question.

[Guest gtyj98]

Maybe it's in another thread, but it went along the lines of why the hell would you go to UPT to fly a standard civilian business jet and not be in the fight at all. That's a good question.

define what 'in the fight' means

[brabus]

define what 'in the fight' means

Doing "the mission", fighting the bad guys, etc, etc. I'm sorry, but carting around generals et al is not fighting the enemy. Sure you can argue that moving generals around is part of the overall war effort or whatever...but seriously, that's a stretch. I'm not saying dudes who fly C-21s suck, are worthless, etc...I just can't personally understand why you would want to fly a Lear 35 when you have the option of flying so many other aircraft that you can't fly outside the military. Not to mention all the other aircraft have missions unique to the military...C-21s have a "mission" that is the same one thousands of civilian pilots do every day...who cares.

[Guest Boom]

Doing "the mission", fighting the bad guys, etc, etc. I'm sorry, but carting around generals et al is not fighting the enemy. Sure you can argue that moving generals around is part of the overall war effort or whatever...but seriously, that's a stretch. I'm not saying dudes who fly C-21s suck, are worthless, etc...I just can't personally understand why you would want to fly a Lear 35 when you have the option of flying so many other aircraft that you can't fly outside the military. Not to mention all the other aircraft have missions unique to the military...C-21s have a "mission" that is the same one thousands of civilian pilots do every day...who cares.

Different strokes for different folks. A lot of people have no desire to *gasp* fly a fighter.

[Guest gtyj98]

Doing "the mission", fighting the bad guys, etc, etc. I'm sorry, but carting around generals et al is not fighting the enemy. Sure you can argue that moving generals around is part of the overall war effort or whatever...but seriously, that's a stretch. I'm not saying dudes who fly C-21s suck, are worthless, etc...I just can't personally understand why you would want to fly a Lear 35 when you have the option of flying so many other aircraft that you can't fly outside the military. Not to mention all the other aircraft have missions unique to the military...C-21s have a "mission" that is the same one thousands of civilian pilots do every day...who cares.

you're probably the kind of guy who looks down on maintainers, services airman, and air traffic controllers. those people can fix planes, cook food, and orchestrate aircraft in the civilian world just the same. however, these people bring an essential capability to the air force.

c-21 pilots have flown 'missions' that you have no idea about. hell, they've probably landed at air strips in the aor that you didn't even know existed. i'm sure those men and women that have flown the lear, and the many people who support that mission care...much more than you obviously.

[brabus]

you're probably the kind of guy who looks down on maintainers, services airman, and air traffic controllers.

Absolutely not.

c-21 pilots have flown 'missions' that you have no idea about. hell, they've probably landed at air strips in the aor that you didn't even know existed.

I'm sure you're 100% correct. I do not for one second look down on those who fly the C-21 or any other aircraft for that matter. Everyone has a personal opinion, I don't care what yours is and you shouldn't care what mine is. I just find it hard to see the appeal to flying a plane that you could easily go fly once out of the AF. I would just think you'd want to fly a C-17, F-16, 135, F-15, 130, etc. while you're in the AF and not seek out an aircraft that you can just go fly afterwards. They may go to "non-existent" airfields or whatever, but it's still A-B carting around passengers. Yes you're right, it's more than a nice LAX-DFW hop, but from the heavy side, I would think someone would rather be hauling cargo, passing gas, doing an airdrop, carrying troops, etc. than carting around some general and his aides. But, to each his own.

[speedy782]

First of all, brabus is entitled to his/her opinion, just like the rest of us.

Second, being a C-21 pilot, I would just like to give my opinion and why I chose the C-21. You can take it or leave it, but this topic peaked my interest. It is rare to get a C-21 out of UPT and I wanted an opportunity in the AF that I might not get again. To be honest, there are a ton of C-17, KC-135, and C-130 pilots out there and I wanted to be part of a smaller community. I like the close knit group of a C-21 squadron and I wanted an experience that a majority of AF pilots will not get. Sure, it is not being "in the fight", but most people will do a white jet tour in their first 3 tours, so they will be out of the "fight" as well at one point. I wanted to fly a C-21 in my white jet tour instead of being at an AETC base flying the T-1. I will be proud to fly any AF plane after my C-21 tour and I figured I would have a good chance of getting my preferred plane after a C-21 tour.

Maybe this provides some insight to why I chose the C-21 and that I didn't choose it all for the mission, but for my own personal preference. In my class, it was sought after by roughly 1/3 of the class and we only had one. This indicates that I am not the only one that wanted one, so others who are not flying the C-21 also preferred to fly the C-21 for some reason or another.

Good luck Brabus w/ the assignment night and if anyone has any C-21 questions, you can PM me or "C-21 Pilot" or "C-21 Cowboy".

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Brabus,

I see your point - but - still disagree.

I had the opportunity to fly C-21's both at Offutt (w/ gtvj98) and also at Ramstein. I would have to say that you are almost spot on when it comes to stateside C-21's. Key word- "almost". Like gtvj98 said, there are "hush, hush" missions that you'd never hear of or think of that civilians would ever do.

At Ramstein, things are completely different.

1.) I flew a Space Shuttle support mission for Atlantis over Spain. Flying w/ NASA is great. Civilians don't do that.

2.) I flew over 150 Combat Support sorties in SWA and Balkan region. Yeah, no bullets, no braun. But who's dick are we measuring? I'm in the C-17 now and am doing EXACTLY the same thing, bigger cargo, more pax - except in the C-21 the only defense is your Mark-1 eye-balls. Granted this was before Iraq/Afghanistan had MWS requirements, but I've still BTDT. Civilians don't do that for the most part.

3.) Touched down in all but 3 countries in Africa. RON'd in all but 10. Most civilains don't do that.

4.) Supported several hush, hush missions vs. the U-2 program. Civilians don't do that.

5.) I've got drunk on the govt dime in 52 countries (in the C-21). Civilains don't do that.

6.) I flew Kid Rock, Robin Williams, the NE Patriots Cheerleaders, John Elway, and a slew of comedians part of the USO gig.

Again, to each their own. I'd recommend ANY C-21, mainly the Ramstein gig. Yeah, it is comparable to civilian flying, but the NETWORKING you get is far superior and more valuable (IMHO) than pointing at your watch. BTW, the KC-135, E-4, VC-25, C-37, C-32, C-20, C-9, C-12 and C-130 have civilian equivilants. I'm not educated on the fighter gig. Yeah, I'd love to fly a fighter for one sortie - who wouldn't. However, EVERY dude from my UPT class who went fighters are now living their dream at Nellis and Clovis.....whew!!! UAV's are the way of the future for ACC...no doubt abaout it. It's not where I wanna be. Period.

The C-21 has many Pro's and Con's - as does every mission. The Lear isn't always at the top of the spear, but it directly affects those decisions that affect the top of the spear. The quality of life is superb. You'll be able to do and see things not every AF flyer gets to do. As the IceMan King Parson's used to say "It Be That Way Sometime, Have Mercy." The C-21 has led me to a -737 type rating, Lear series type ratings, ATP, etc...yeah, you can do that in the civilian world, but again, on the govt dime and time.

Bottom line, I'd recommend that if you've never flown a particular aircraft or ever completed said mission, then don't have an opinion.

Your opinion is entitled to a "misrepresentation" of the community.

Edited December 23, 2007 by C-21 Pilot

[brabus]

You guys both make good points. You're right, my opinion will always be an outsider's who hasn't BTDT in the plane/mission. Again, I'm not shitting on any C-21 guys or the aircraft, I just see it differently, even after the boozing in 52 countries and flying Robin Williams around...not saying that shit isn't sweet, but just not the "sweet" I'm looking for in mil aviation. Nonetheless, things like those are still cool opportunities.

most people will do a white jet tour in their first 3 tours, so they will be out of the "fight" as well at one point. I wanted to fly a C-21 in my white jet tour instead of being at an AETC base flying the T-1.

At least to me, that made the most sense. That's definitely something I never thought of.

[Godfather]

After 11 years of flying in the Air Force I found my initial C-21 assignment to be the most rewarding and some of the most challenging of my career. I have no doubt that I helped save lives with the medical evacuation mission. I flew generals, congress, and ambassador's that helped with the other side of the mission. I also flew into runways with mountains at the end of them (no going around), GITMO, Quito, and more countries than in the remaining 8 years of my "operational" side that included special ops flying.

C-21's is a great opportunity and I highly recomend it to anybody that is interested.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Pretty much sums up the C-21. A simple "C-21" in the search could yield more info - I found several posts. Keep in mind, a majority of the info I share is outdated by 2 years since I left the plane in Aug 2006. Below is something I had compiled about the airplane as folks kept asking me questions.

I can update it, but you can get the jist. By the time I left Ramstein, I had pretty much ran the gauntlet of stuff to do - heck, after 5 ys in plane, you would too.

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http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index...394&hl=C-21

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The C-21 is essentially a Learjet 35A. There are some minor differences, and they are all up in the cockpit. The plane was bought from Gates Lear back in 1984 (all models are 1984).

The C-21 has a few mods that stock Lear 35s won't have. They all have a Universal MFD that displays nav data, TCAS targets, wx radar and terrain/TAWS data. They also have an EVSI that displays TCAS climb information as well as TCAS traffic. The C-21 has a Universal UNS-1B flight management system that, in my opinion, is much more user friendly than the Collins FMS in the T-1. C-21s have dual GPS receivers, and are certified to conduct GPS approaches, but overseas, I have yet to fly one though. GPS approaches are huge right now in the states..

All C-21s have been modified to include fuel standby pump operating lights, fuel crossflow caution lights, and a light indicating that the parking brake is set. They are also equipped with Honeywell TAWS and TCAS II systems, as well as the Mode S transponder required on TCAS-equipped aircraft.

Other things you find on the C-21 that civilian Lears don't have include the UHF and HF radios, and a GPS control panel.

C-21 missions can be broken into four types: Training, operational support, AMC support and combat/combat support missions.

Training missions vary depending on the training required, and the unit location (Overseas versus Stateside...I've been to both now). Stateside Off-station trainers (OST) are often flown to places like Sondrestromfjord in Greenland, as well as Alaska, Cuba, Honduras and Ecuador. OSTs can also be flown to various North American locations as well for training in "high-density traffic areas" (eg San Diego/Dulles, etc) and high-altitude airfield training (Eagle Co., Colorado). Here at Ramstein, we can fly our OST's to Iceland, Scotland, The Azores, Italy, Poland and a few more countries.

We also fly local sorties called "M010s" (M Tens), which is the ARMS code for a C-21 local proficiency sortie. These mean you'll go to an outlying airfield and practice multiple instrument approaches as well as VFR traffic patterns. They can be flown as an out-and-back or a continuous local mission.

Operational Support Airlift (OSA) missions are the meat of C-21 flying. A TRANSCOM agency, the Joint Operational Support Airlift Center (JOSAC) receives airlift request and cuts the missions to the individual squadrons who then execute the missions. Again, stateside versus Ramstein is the same issue except instead of JOSAC, it's called AMOCC (Air Mobility Operations Control Center).

A typical OSA mission will involve departing home station, flying to Robins AFB in Georgia to pick up your passengers, flying them to Andrews AFB to drop them off, repositioning to Atlanta Hartsfield to pick up a new set of passengers and perhaps carrying them to Godman AAF (Army Airfield) in Kentucky, then reposition back to home base. In Europe, there are more nights on the road. While at Offutt, in 1 year I got about 15 days away from my bed. Here at Ramstein, I've already been gon about 20 in 2 months of flying.

In one day, you'll transit several states (or countries), land at airfields ranging in size from small and uncontrolled (like KSOP in North Carolina) to very busy and large (like KDFW in Dallas). You will usually fly DVs (Distinguished Visitors, ie, general/flag officers), but often you'll fly a plane-load of junior officers or enlisted folks enroute to a conference. Occassionally you'll fly the high-rollers, like Congressional Representatives, Senators, senior DoD civilian staff, and on occassion the CSAF when his Gulfstream breaks down.

I personally have been to all of the lower 48 states in this airplane. I've been to remote airfields like Barstow-Daggett in California, to DFW and Atlanta. I've been to Army, Navy and Air Force airfields. And I know what it's like to circle to land at minimums out of a GPS approach to a 5,000 foot wet runway with an uncontrolled airfield (with a three star in the back). The flying is varied and unique, the the C-21 is an extremely fun airplane to fly (but very cramped).

AMC support missions are missions that are handed to us direct from the TACC (Tanker Airlift Control Center). I've seen three of these missions in the entire 2 1/2+ years I've been flying C-21s. All three were fragged to fly to Gitmo. TACC-directed missions aren't common in the C-21 world.

Combat/Combat Support missions are those flown when you're assigned to CENTAF and flying out of the forward-deployed location in the middle east. There, you'll fly to most of the middle-eastern countries in support of both OIF (Iraq) and OEF (Afghanistan). You may fly into Iraq and Afghanistan proper, depending on mission requirements, and get to perform real no-kidding tactical approaches (and wear body armor in the process). I've personally flown to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kzyrghistan, among other locations.

Other countries I've been to include Honduras, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Cuba, Cayman Islands, Greenland, Canada, France, Azores, England, Germany, Italy, Cyprus, Sicily, Turkey, Hungary, Kosovo, and a few "other" places that I can't give out here.

Locations you ask...good question. That is changing. By the end of 2005 there will be only four C-21 squadrons. The 84th AS will be located at Peterson AFB in Colorado. The 458th AS will be located at Scott AFB in Illinois. The 54th AS will be located at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, and the 457th AS will be located at Andrews AFB in Maryland. Gone will be the whole "Airlift Flight" concept, perhaps for good. Back in the day, these flights were owned by specific agencies and commands and had as few as two C-21s on hand. Then came the first consolidation resulting in the locales we have up until August 2004 (when Maxwell closes its doors). And now this latest consolidation.

If you go to a C-21 unit, realize that the Air Force will require you to do two back-to-back OPS tours (ie, two assignments flying MWS aircraft). You had your three years in the slow lane flying C-21s, so then they will put you to work. Chances of going back to the C-21 after one MWS tour is pretty much zilch. You MIGHT be able to score another C-21 hitch as a field grader. Maybe.

A few Pro's in the C-21, hardly ever go TDY. RON's are usually at prime locations (Miami, Key West, Monterrey, etc.), and upgrades. In fact, most C-21 pilots upgrade to IP is just over 2 yrs (due to manning and availability, my upgrades have come much quicker than the "Average Joe".).

Also, with the influx of STRAT aircraft coming into the market, look for a majority of C-21 guys with no follow-on assignment (like myself) to end up flying either a C-5 or C-17.

The C-21 is a great tour with a great community.

The reason why we get the "taxi for the brass" title is because in peacetime, our missions are categorized first by priority (ie, direct support of combat forces, urgent requirements, or routine use). 99% of what we do is categorized as "routine". Routine users are then prioritized based on rank, so obviously the 4-star general or admiral will get dibs on a jet before a major or captain.

But what even in "routine" use, our mission is to support any offical DoD personnel travel request, pending aircraft availability. So if a bunch of 2Lt's need to travel to ASBC, they can put in a travel request. If there isn't a heavy load of general officer requests, those 2Lt's will probably get supported by a C-21 (or a C-12).

On the flip side, we've canceled lifts supporting generals and admirals to pick up an urgent requirement, such as an Operation Noble Eagle mission. I flew a planeload of Army enlisted guys to Andrews once on an ONE mission.

Now that we've covered the myth of the flying general's taxi, I'll go into some more specific advantages and disadvantages.

Pros: You'll fly all over the CONUS, and into a fair number of OCONUS destinations. I've been to airfields in almost every state, both military and civilian. It's quite common to sit at the ultra-nice Signature FBOs sipping free gourmet coffee, after having spent the night in downtown Denver in a Hilton. I've flown to Atlanta, DFW, San Diego Intl, Denver Intl, Sea-Tac, Key West, Durango, and a whole bunch of other places. We go to small uncontrolled airfields in the mountains of California, all the way to huge international airfields like JFK and DFW. And of course we go to military airfields of all services.

So you gain alot of experience quickly. Another great advantage is the upgrade times. You become an Aircraft Commander with a minimum of 400 hours C-21 time and at least a year on station. More typically, you'll upgrade with about 500 hours and maybe a 1 1/2 years on station. Most C-21 pilots upgrade to Instructor Pilot around 600-700 hours C-21 time (takes about 1 1/2 to 2 years to get there).

When you leave the C-21 community, you'll have a Learjet type rating (allows you to fly all the 20, 30 and 50 series Learjets), some IP time in your pocket, and a ticket to the left seat of your MWS.

Bad things about the C-21? Well, you're in a small unit (relative to a C-17 or C-5), which can be bad because additional duties are spread across a smaller number of folks. In the C-21 world, most pilots have a "real" job. That and some C-21 units have a ROTC detachment atmosphere (ie, really anal on the shine your boots, cut your hair, blah blah blah) and others have a more "flying club" atmosphere. And when it's time to go to your MWS, it's almost like UPT drop night all over...you compete against other C-21 pilots in other units for whatever AFPC drops down to you. Another small disadvantage is that while you might get the chance to log some combat time in Iraq doing real-world missions, 99% of what you do will be routine, peacetime pax transport missions back in the States, and you occassionally feel a bit left out of the big picture.

Here's a few questions that I've been asked over the past few years.

"Is it possible to fly C-21's with a C-17 follow on or do you not know what you are going to fly next after you are done with your first tour in the C-21's?"

The latest gouge I know of is UPT grads aren't given any kind of follow-on...it's going to be just like UPT again. You'll compete for the whole spectrum of assignments. But by the time you complete UPT, it could change again. Who knows?

"Also how many hours do you need to be a misson commander in the C-21?"

Upgrade times are as follows: from MC (copilot) to FP (first pilot), you need 100 PAA hours (time in the front seat). FP is still a copilot, but you can now sit in the left seat and do practice single-engine approaches.

From FP to MP (Aircraft Commander), you need 400 total C-21 hours. This includes your "other" time. But most units won't upgrade you till they feel you're ready, and the average pilot upgrades around 500 hours.

From MP to IP, you need 100 hours from MP certification. That works out to be around 600-700 on average, but some have had as little as 550 (it takes about 30-50 hours to upgrade someone from FP to MP).

Let's just settle some misplaced rumors now. I've already been told by several people on this board and others that apparently the C-21 has no combat mission and while the other guys are out there risking it, we're kicking our feet up back in CONUS or in the non-combat zones in theater flying easy missions to Bahrain or PSAB.

Do we do those type of missions? Sure. That's part of our job. We fly to places like PSAB. But one thing that few seem to know is that the C-21 has been flying into Iraq for some time now. There continues to be a bit of a disagreement within the CENTCOM chain of command whether we should be flying in Iraq, but we've been doing it for a while.

I logged about 10 hours of combat time over about 4 sorties flying into Iraq. We flew priority airlift missions...not just DVs looking to tour Iraq. Many of the missions were critical to CENTCOM, and if we didn't do it, then a C-130 crew would.

I can't say we played a critical role in the operations in Iraq, but it does get me a bit stirred up when someone dismisses our job as "cushy". Sitting in a jet with no air conditioning isn't cushy. Wearing or sitting on body armor while you're doing a tactical spiral approach, hoping you're not going to get tagged by ground fire on the way in also isn't the definition of "safe".

One day, I was briefed that aircraft had been shot at in the two preceeding days. Another airfield was mortared a couple days after I had been there. People often chime in at that point and say "well, at least YOU didn't get shot at"...well, as far as I know I didn't. The C-21 has no defensive systems. No chaff. No flares. Nothing warning you of that SA-7 cooking up towards your motors. All you have are your eyeballs and a plan in the back of your head should you see that dreaded smoke plume rising towards you (or tracer fire...whatever it may be).

As far as why many of us choose the C-21...no, it's not to "travel". Nor is it to win a seat at an airline. And it's not because we desire to fly in limosine comfort. The C-21 offers you no advantages over any other MWS airplane in those arenas.

Everyone in AMC travels. Airlines don't particularly care if you flew a C-21 or a C-5. They look at whether you spent 8 years as a copilot or if you moved up to instructor. And for pilots, the C-21 is alot more uncomfortable than you think. The cockpit is tiny (you really can't adjust the seat at all), the air conditioner is way in the back of the cabin (thus, you don't get any air), and the toilet pulls out from the jumpseat.

So why do so many of us put the C-21 first? Well, it's a Learjet. It handles great. It rolls faster than a Tweet. It climbs like crazy (except when you're in the middle east with temps of 120). Flying-wise, it's a fun jet to fly. But the number one reason why we chose it:

Upgrades.

Most of my friends are still copilots in their MWS. You can upgrade to Aircraft Commander in a year. When you do go to an MWS, you attend the schoolhouse as an AC. The experience you gain is incredible. It's probably the only place in AMC where two Lieutenants can take a jet and operate it OCONUS or anywhere in CONUS, and be totally responsible for completing the mission. Yep...as a 700 hour pilot, you can be an Aircraft Commander and be flying a $3 million dollar jet into Iraq with the CFACC in the back. You don't have a nav, flight engineer, or loadmaster to help you out. All you have is 2Lt Snuffy who's got about 200 hours in the jet.

So that's what most of us look at when we decide to fly the C-21.

And maybe you can better appreciate the community instead of assuming we're the joke of the USAF. Our patch in the desert said "Combat Learjet" on it. I lost count of the number of people who thought it was a joke. When I told them I had combat time in the C-21, they would look at you and say "how is that possible? I don't think C-21s should log combat time". Indeed, some in the USAF tried to prohibit us from logging O-1 (combat) time, despite the fact we were flying into the same airfields Herks and C-17s were flying into and logging combat time.

The C-21 has a wartime mission: timely movement of priority pax and cargo.

You can look at my flying hour summary and note that it lists about 35 hours of both combat and combat support time during the 45 days I was over there. Yes, I did not stutter...I typed combat time.

I flew into Iraq, and operated out of airfields that still had problems with small arms fire, AAA and the occassional MANPAD. Oh, did I mention we were the only USAF asset routinely flying in and out of Iraqi airfields with no defensive capabilities?

ILS final? No, try a tactical spiral-down approach from 15,000 feet, with eyeballs outside looking for tracers and praying that Abdullah doesn't have an SA-7 waiting for us. Oh, and sitting on and/or wearing flak vests doesn't make for comfortable flying either. But you do it because it's better than taking the chance of having your nuts blown off.

Just to answer for the OTHERS...The C-21 was my first choice out of T-1s. Everyone in AMC travels, so that is a stupid question. Hours for an airline job? You really think an airline is going to put more emphasis on time logged in a Lear 35 over heavy jet time? It's not WHAT you fly, but the quality of flying time (ie AC, IP, EP).

"Why did most of you become C-21 pilots?

For the same reason someone became a F-16, C-17, or RC-135 pilot. It was handed down to us by the AFPC (Flt CC gods).

"Did you choose it over other jets?"

If you are familiar how the UPT assignment system works, then this question answers itself. The *norm* is for this plane to very desirable out of UPT. For me, this was my number one choice, so yeah, I chose it over a number of other aircraft.

Was it for the nice bases and opportunity to travel?

Yes, of course. The C-21 has some fairly nice bases, and we travel all the time to different airfields. My choice was strictly based upon what I wanted to do and to accomidate my family life as well.

Was it to build hours for an airline job?

Regardless of what plane you fly, you'll build hours toward a civilian job. With the C-21, we get rated in the Lear 20 and 30 series, so that coupled with the Beech 400 and Mitsubishi 300 rating, it does go well. But, no, I didn't choose the C-21 based upon the airline industry.

I'm just wondering why someone in the military would choose to fly a plane with no wartime mission."

You must not know much about the military and its' "wartime mission". We currently have several folks at PSAB, Qutar, etc carrying out the AMC mission. Granted we don't drop the bombs, but our mission isn't modified over there because we are C-21 pilots with no wartime mission. I think the only pilots that have no wartime mission are the AETC goons, but their job is equally important.

"...what are the pros & cons of flying the C-21?"

I can honestly say that the only downfall to flying the C-21 is the small *** flight deck. I'm 6'2", 230 and it's quite uncomfortable especially on the longhaul.

The pro's, too many to list. We fly all over the country to extreme situations, as in, you'll land at some 9500' Class B airport, and then see your self at some remote field that is only 5000' long with limited approaches. You become an Aircraft Commander approx 1.5 yrs after completing the school house which by far is the quickest in the AMC world. You get your face and name seen by dignitaries. You have a small tight-nit squadron. You hardly ever stay overnight somewhere. The jet is super responsive....similiar in nature to the tweet in handling characteristics.

The operational aircraft are interesting, but there's nothing like two Lt's taking a Lear out for an out-and-back to Colorado on a training sortie, or the same going on a CT to Key West. And don't worry, we'll have more than enough opportunities to give our talents to other airframes. One common story that PQP guys (Prior Qual Pilots) tell the FAPs (First Assignment Pilots), is that they always see a FAP complain about the C-21, then when they get to their MWS, they call back and tell everyone they wish they were still flying C-21s.

Sorry for the long post, but I have the frame of mind that the more you know about something, the better chance you can make later down the road. Do I regret my decision in flying the C-21....HELL NO. It's by far the most "exciting" plane that the heavy world will let us fly....read: it's VERY maneuverable!!!

Hope this helps...