Ram Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Uh, is all that DG stuff really THAT freaking important? If this PME is "so essential," shouldn't the main drive of every captain at SOS be to learn as much as possible and NOT try to run up a high score? You'd think the behavioral analysis goons at AU (who put the "anal" in "analysis" btw) who know so much about interpersonal BS would be smart enough to find a better way to motivate captains than to dangle a DG carrot for the shoeclerks to stab each other in the back for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 One question for you Rainman... After seeing crap like that at SOS what made you stay in the AF? (I'm sure WIC helped but still.) What advice would you be willing to offer to those of us who saw crap like that at SOS and are tired of it all? Is it going to be worth it to stay in? I know that each one of us has to find out that answer for ourselves and it is a personal thing but looking back on it all is there any advice you could give us? I can't answer for anyone else but it was really quite simple for me. I was always willing and able to put up with an enormous amount of bullshit because I mostly just ignored it. I wanted to be part of the team and the bullshit, while sometimes annoying, didn't stop me from doing that. It was also never a problem with leadership because I always figured I could outlive it because the boss or I was going to PCS in 18-24 mos max. It just made sense to me that there was nothing better than serving my country by flying jets to support the guys on the ground, CAS or CSAR. Uh, is all that DG stuff really THAT freaking important? If this PME is "so essential," shouldn't the main drive of every captain at SOS be to learn as much as possible and NOT try to run up a high score? You'd think the behavioral analysis goons at AU (who put the "anal" in "analysis" btw) who know so much about interpersonal BS would be smart enough to find a better way to motivate captains than to dangle a DG carrot for the shoeclerks to stab each other in the back for. That was my argument almost word for word. I said they should have a single DG for all of SOS and everyone else could just chill and learn. I also said they should wash people out for being tools or just being shitty at officership. I figured that would keep people's craniums in the game but not on a swivel constantly checking six. Whatever, they didn't give a shit what I thought would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HU&W Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 anyone else staying off base and know of decent extended stay places? the lodging office/student mgmt was useless and i havent been back to maxwell since ots I took my family to Back-to-Back OTS and ASBC. They (and me for ASBC) stayed in a nice extended stay off exit 6. It was called the Azalea Hills Apartments. Years ago, it cost about $200 per week and since for the ASBC part they reimbursed up to the amount for billeting, it was mostly covered. Although it was a little sad having to drive 15 minutes to go to class and not being close enough to hang out with everyone else, the good outweighed the bad. My family stayed in a 1000 sqft 2 bedroom apartment while everyone else was crammed into that micro-studio billeting. We had ready access to all the good restaurants, and the good shopping. If my family comes with me, my plan is to do that again for SOS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Uh, is all that DG stuff really THAT freaking important? If this PME is "so essential," shouldn't the main drive of every captain at SOS be to learn as much as possible and NOT try to run up a high score? You'd think the behavioral analysis goons at AU (who put the "anal" in "analysis" btw) who know so much about interpersonal BS would be smart enough to find a better way to motivate captains than to dangle a DG carrot for the shoeclerks to stab each other in the back for. NO, it's not that important. (Except for the shoe clerks I guess) My point is that the AF makes it important or at least thinks that it is important and that annoys the hell out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 NO, it's not that important. (Except for the shoe clerks I guess) My point is that the AF makes it important or at least thinks that it is important and that annoys the hell out of me. I agree that's it's not important from a personal perspective, but I should have clarified by asking if it's THAT important to Big Blue. I remember years ago they actually did away with the DG program at SOS, only to bring it back approximately a year later. So, what drove that decision? Is it a PRF discriminator that's "vital" to a roomful of O-6s picking future majors? And, if it's THAT important to a bunch of O-6s sitting around looking at packages (heh), doesn't that cheapen PDE and the worth of the whole promotion process? I'll defer to the opinion of the older craniums on this board, but from the captain perspective the whole thing looks like a giant self-licking ice cream cone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 It is all about promotion boards being lazy and time crunched. The DG container for any training is easy to see when going through someone's records. Since most everyone does SOS in residence it is easy to use SOS DG as a discriminator across the board. SOS DG is a total joke on its own merits but it matters to a promotion board that is only spending 30 seconds on your records and is looking for squares with Xs in them. So, the process is fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I was discussing SOS with a major in my squadron. He told me that the commandant's "welcome to SOS" speech actually included the the phrase "If you aren't the DG, you are wasting everyone's time". Seems that if everyone but the DG is wasting time (and money), SOS should be cut. No where else in the Air Force would a program that only benefits 1% of the people involved survive. If it isn't true (and I suspect it isn't), then this is a terribly demotivating statement for most of the class. Perhaps he's just trying to make everyone shoot for DG, but what the statement actually does is make people give up on day 4 when they don't get the high score on some graded measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 My SOS class didn't even have a DG option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Rainman... wow. Internet @$$ kissing aside, my respect for you just skyrocketed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muscle2002 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I was discussing SOS with a major in my squadron. He told me that the commandant's "welcome to SOS" speech actually included the the phrase "If you aren't the DG, you are wasting everyone's time". Seems that if everyone but the DG is wasting time (and money), SOS should be cut. No where else in the Air Force would a program that only benefits 1% of the people involved survive. If it isn't true (and I suspect it isn't), then this is a terribly demotivating statement for most of the class. Perhaps he's just trying to make everyone shoot for DG, but what the statement actually does is make people give up on day 4 when they don't get the high score on some graded measure. I suspect you're right in that it's used as motivation, but there are definitely better ways to motivate folks to perform than to suggest they're wasting time if they don't finish in the top 10%. FWIW, while I was there, a flight mate of mine said that his SR told him the same thing. Essentially in that SR's mind, SOS in-residence merely existed as an avenue to pad someone's record given SOS by correspondence achieved the same PME requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoAround Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I had no DG pgm during my SOS either; however, people were still programmed mentally to back stab. We had 8 rated guys (5 pilots, 2 Navs, and an ABMer). All the rated folks, except the ABM dork, clung together and stuck to the mantra cooperate and graduate...if ya know what I mean. We had a blast and I still keep in touch with a few of the bros...the 2 chicks in our class were absolute shoe clerk c-u-next-tuesdays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Rainman... wow. Internet @$$ kissing aside, my respect for you just skyrocketed... Ok look, I'm not bragging about what I did and I would definitely not suggest it as a technique. Take this as bar talk not career advice. However...if you thought that was a funny story you should've been there when I told my FW/CC that I was going to opt out of ACSC. I told him I got a call from Nellis and was heading down there to be an IP. He freaked. I remained poised. I pointed out the reg (that the FWIC Commandant alerted me to) that stated the Weapons School had the authority to override any other assignment just in case he was going to fight me on it and my kill shot was saying "Well Sir, you skipped out of ACSC and went to Nellis instead and it didn't seem to hurt your career...GENERAL." Not disrespectful, just candid and correct. I was just passing my little SOS story along to point out that SOS has been exactly the same bullshit for at least 20 yrs and the DG program (like it or not) is used as a key discriminator. I also don't think it is anything for anyone to fret over. I think everyone knows I believe you have to fill the minimum squares if you want to stay off the bench or worse, avoid getting cut. SOS DG is (and always has been) more important when they're looking at school slots for ACSC than being the DG at FWIC. It is what it is, deal with it as you see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backseatdriver Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 SOS DG is (and always has been) more important when they're looking at school slots for ACSC than being the DG at FWIC. It is what it is, deal with it as you see fit. To piggyback - an O-6 once explained it to me like this (when discussing why the AF considers SOS DG such a big deal) - "SOS is the first time you're compared/ranked against other people in the AF that don't look like you." Meaning in UPT, UNT, WIC, etc you're ranked against people from your same career field, airframe, etc. Therefore, the AF (promotion boards, etc) considers DG at PME (SOS/ACSC) as you standing out in the top 10% when compared to officers from all career fields and all over the AF. Now, having been through UNT, WIC, and SOS - the workload, skill/aptitude required, and competition is exponentially fiercer in two of the three. Do I agree with the emphasis the AF (at all levels) place on SOS over the other two? No. But like Rainman said: It is what it is, deal with it as you see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrodgsxr Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 It is what it is, deal with it as you see fit. copy.. now on to find the good gouge.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 copy.. now on to find the good gouge.... If the new course is anything like the recently killed course gouge won't help. Here are the key to success: have a good attitude, be "one of the bros", speak and write well, and have an open mind. As with most anything, you get out of it what you put into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 So, I just got my "Welcome to SOS" email today. I'm really excited that one of our required activities is now keeping a diary, excuse me, journal. Apparently we are supposed to document what we are learning about leadership at SOS. I wonder if I'll fail that graded measure if I just use it to tally my booze intake for the week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigmanugary Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 ^ I just saw that too...this is 100% truth guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 So, I just got my "Welcome to SOS" email today. I'm really excited that one of our required activities is now keeping a diary, excuse me, journal. Apparently we are supposed to document what we are learning about leadership at SOS. I wonder if I'll fail that graded measure if I just use it to tally my booze intake for the week? Civilian leadership courses do the same. Chicks love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Civilian leadership courses do the same. Chicks love it. I'm torn between BSing about how much I'm learning, and putting my true feelings about two months away from the family. The cynical part of me thinks that they are making this mandatory so they have a stack of documentation proving what students have learned in an effort to keep the program from being cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 You have to turn it in when you're done? As in, this is not a private journal but rather you need to turn in your notes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzle Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 So excited to go now 9 Jan after reading the thread - yay. Where are the good hog hunting areas? Hopefully they have rifles/handguns to borrow. I'm thinking NC-style pig pull on the grounds the ole' lodging buildings (aka "crack houses"). Have all the buildings been renovated? Nearly ten people in my ASBC class had a respiratory infection from mold after the first week in those buildings. Who wants to go deep-sea fishing? It'd be a long day of bottom fishing out of the Port of Destin, FL. Bottom fishing is the only thing in season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HossHarris Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Who wants to go deep-sea fishing? It'd be a long day of bottom fishing out of the Port of Destin, FL. Bottom fishing is the only thing in season. I can recommend the Destin Princess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 You have to turn it in when you're done? As in, this is not a private journal but rather you need to turn in your notes? Yep...they get checked once a week for the whole class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizzle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 FYSA...so SOS is currently running a max of 840 students per class for the next few classes. Accoording to an O-6 in the school's leadership will be at 600 per class thereafter. Promises of 100% attendance seem to be fading fast.... reference the math... 3,009 Captain promotions in the 2011C board alone (not including the other promotion boards, Medical Officers, JAG, etc) and 5 SOS classes per year To make things worse they're beta testing some B.S. that the in-residence course will actually have the first 3 weeks as distance learning through the software Blackboard from your home station. The first class of beta-testors will actually be TDY to Montgomery for those first three weeks "interacting" from their lodging. ...yay! BTW - Battleshots was a bad, but fun idea... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 FYSA...so SOS is currently running a max of 840 students per class for the next few classes. Accoording to an O-6 in the school's leadership will be at 600 per class thereafter. Promises of 100% attendance seem to be fading fast.... reference the math... 3,009 Captain promotions in the 2011C board alone (not including the other promotion boards, Medical Officers, JAG, etc) and 5 SOS classes per year To make things worse they're beta testing some B.S. that the in-residence course will actually have the first 3 weeks as distance learning through the software Blackboard from your home station. The first class of beta-testors will actually be TDY to Montgomery for those first three weeks "interacting" from their lodging. ...yay! BTW - Battleshots was a bad, but fun idea... The "math errors" you cite clearly can't be true. We've been told that everyone is important and "we can't do the mission without you!" We also aren't making any cuts... ...in short, SOMEONE is lying, or clueless or both. On a related note to your post, AWESOME use of time at SOS. Far more productive than pointless "leadership" exercises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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