Baseops Forums

Quote

Where can I read up on this? My old det PAS worked at personnel and told me that it was 2(or 2.5) years after pinning on nav wings before you could start UPT (or something to that fashion) and so despite what they tell me, I can apply early, as long as my class starts after that deadline.

I am just curious as to where he got his information, if perhaps he misread it...much thanks!

Shady,
I think you misunderstand me. If you are already a NAV and decide that you want to become a pilot you WILL compete on the same AD board that everyone else meets. Trust me. In my opinion if you are already rated(winged nav) you WILL have a slightly better chance on the board than the average maintenance officer. Again second sentence is my opinion only, where as the first is fact.
Given the current climate of the Air Force you're probably right about staying away from a desk and being in the air no matter what type wings you wear. I do however have two good friends that are exceptional Navigators who want desperatly to cross over to the Pilot side, but won't get another look because of the 5 year lockout and that's to bad. To each his own.

Drewpey,
You got it. Per the REG you can apply to a board that would, if selected, result in you serving 2.5 years as a rated nav. In other words you could theoretically apply a few months early.

ref:
AFI 36-2205
"Officers selected for or currently enrolled in SUNT are ineligible to apply for pilot training until completion of SUNT and award of aeronautical rating of navigator. Navigators may apply to any board that, if selected, will result in serving the full 2 ½ years of rated duty (as a navigator) by their selected
class start date for a given selection board."

Quote

I think you are correct, unless something has changed in the last year or two. AD Navs only compete with other navs/abms for UPT. The non-rated (it really chaps my ass to have call ABMs "rated"..but I digress) folks compete against each other for a different pile of slots. Navs typically had a 15-20% chance of being picked up, while the less qualified (AFOQT, PCSM, and flying hour wise, at least) non-rated folks had a 40-50% select rate, IIRC.

Quote

While it isn't impossible to get the 5 year TAFCS waiver, I would say it is VERY difficult to get. There are always exceptions, but I have never met anyone who got the waiver on Active Duty. Everyone I know who was turned down on AD ended up getting the waiver via the ANG. A loss for AD, IMHO.

Quote

Doug76,

You may be lucky but I wouldn't tell people to turn down a nav slot. Once you turn down ANY rated position, even in ROTC, you can never apply again. I was a nav before becoming a pilot and loved every minute of it. Like I have said on other post, BEING A PILOT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE THE BEST THE AIR FORCE HAS TO OFFER!

You can put in an application but cannot start UPT until you have served 2.5yrs as a nav. I had a Capt in my class that did 8 months. Some people think that navs are second class aviators. The only thing we don't do in JSUNT is get stick time, stp. We learn about weather, instruments, approaches, flight rules, airspace, all the regs, etc. We actually get more training on flying the friendly skies b/c we have sims that allow us to do so. In UPT our flights/sims were no more than 1.3. In UNT the flights/sims ar 4.0 and you are a**holes and elbows the whole time until you get pretty good. Then they throw new sh*t at you. We learn about ICAO procedures and pratice them in UNT. In UPT you may read about them for 10 minutes. I always wondered when I was a nav why new copilots had no clue about the flight rules, approaches, STARS, etc.
Then going to UPT I found out.

There we learned EP's, systems, and EP's. I understand why they want you to learn all the systems and EP's for flights. The sims could have at least tried to prepare pilots for most of their flying, in international airspace. Copilots have no clue how to fill out an 1801. Nor do they know have to give a position report. Yes, pilots in the Air Force know how to fly a plane, but I'm here to tell you it isn't as cosmic as many want to believe.

Sorry to get on a soapbox. I don't want to see anybody turn down or not apply for nav b/c they think it's below them. The nav flies just as high as the pilots and looks down at all other non-rated officers who regret not putting in for the backseat .

Same topic, new twist:

Say you go AD nav. With the 6 year commitment after JSUNT, can you cut out of that 6 years early if you get picked up for UPT through a guard or reserve unit instead of the AD pilot board?

Yes you can. A fellow nav of mine picked up for UPT by the NE Guard at his 3 1/2 year point. He will finish his AD commitment with them and pick up another guard commitment after UPT. Remember, there is nothing set in stone.

Quote

He was most likely released from AD under the Palace Chase program. Like you mentioned, if approved you serve the remainder of your ADSC with the ANG/AFRES plus any new commitment (UPT). Strangely enough, you have to pay back your 'unearned' tuition assistance when you leave the AD.

For navs that go pilot: do flight hours as a nav count as flight hours towards PCSM score when you put a package in?

Quote

No they do not. It is only private hours that count toward your PCSM.

blkafnav, on Feb 2 2006, 07:37 AM, said:

I know this is quite the thread revival, but do IFS hours count towards PCSM for CSOs who later apply for UPT?

Odium, on Mar 4 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

As long as you have logged them in your book.

I am a civilian flight instructor. I applied for an Air Force pilot slot and got navigator. What are my chances of transferring to a pilot slot after being a navigator? If the chances aren't looking too good then I think I will maintain my civilian job rather than sign a 6 year commitment as a navigator.

1. How old are you?

Regardless of what your experience is, there will always be the age cut-off of 30 years old for UPT. While it is waiverable, I believe it's a 4-Star/MAJCOM level waiver. Worst they can say is no. After a couple of years of seasoning as a CSO, there will be opportunities to apply for UPT however, I will let other who are more in the know than I to explain that process.

2. Did you apply pilot only?

If not, when you turn down CSO, please apologize to those that applied for a CSO slot and did not get it. If you did apply pilot only, there were some mutterings after the 09-03 rated board of recruiters adding the CSO as a number two choice without the applicants knowing.

3. Sounds like you're not really joining the AF to be an officer but to be a pilot....which by the sound of it, you already are. Maybe it's best for you to have a little "coming to Jesus" moment and think about what you want to do; be an officer in the AF and a CSO, or a civilian pilot. Whatever you choose good luck, but I personally wouldn't throw away a great opportunity to serve your country. I was picked up in the 09-03 board after two attempts and got my second choice CSO. Sure I still wish I would have gotten UPT, but with selection rates what they are right now, I feel privileged to have even been picked up. Your civilian ratings aren't going to dissapear after six years, you can always go back to the civilian life after six years if you so desire. And trust me, six years in the grand scheme of things is not that long.

Edit: Grammar
Edited by skinny, 07 December 2009 - 04:19 AM.

#1 If you would have used the search function, you would have found This Thread. Congrats, you are now talking to mostly Rated Officers and people who have already started UPT/UNT and are way further down the line than you are. This isn't Air Force OTS.com anymore.

#2 if you didn't want Nav, why in the F*CK would you put it down on your application? If you just got picked up on the 10-01 board, you were lucky enough to get selected on one of the toughest boards in a long time. You must have truly had an impressive application. Nice work.

#3 If you applied "Just to be a Pilot" and not help everyone out there hack the mission and win this fight of our lives that is about to get a lot uglier, GET THE HELL OUT. I don't want your worthless ass in my Air Force. Turn down the slot. Fine. Just make sure you offer apologies to every one of the people who did NOT get in on this OTS board who could have really helped us out, who's slot you as a selfish, self centered piece of crap just took.

#4 You picked TODAY of all days to come whining about not getting the job you wanted? REALLY? What a difference 68 years makes! You realize that today 68 years ago, guys were signing up for WHATEVER job they could get just to help out the cause? They didn't care, they just wanted to do their parts, and you pick TODAY to whine. I guess this really is the entitlement generation. "Well I deserve"...

#5 Get over yourself.

//Rant off//

Seriously, congrats on being picked up.

EDIT: Now, new and improved, more rant! Thought about this selfish posting on Dec 7th and couldn't help myself.
Edited by discus, 07 December 2009 - 10:27 AM.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be a pilot and not a nav. You'll get beat up on here regularly for not wanting to "serve" as an officer first. I think it's just being pragmatic with your life. If you don't want to be a nav, don't. 6 years is a long time to serve if it's not what you want. Look into other ways to find a pilot slot (i.e. ANG, AFRC, or another service all together). If you can't find another way into the pilot seat, then consider the second best job in the Air Force and take a nav slot.

I don't know the current rules/processes involved with your situation, I just wanted to say there is no harm in wanting to be a pilot. Good luck.

slacker, on 07 December 2009 - 11:31 AM, said:

Slacker; I agree there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a pilot and not a Nav. But, if you didn't want to be a Nav, why would you put down a #2 choice of "Nav" on your application? If you just want to be a pilot, and otherwise will not take the slot, why not just put "Pilot?" That's why the question is there, so that the huge pain of all the paperwork his poor recruiter had to do, as well as the time of the busy Col's on the selection board was not wasted. It's easy, just check the box "Pilot". Now, what this guy has done is taken a slot from someone who may have really wanted the job and done very well at it.

I'm not ranting about wanting to be a pilot, I'm not ranting about being a little down about being picked up as a Nav and not realizing a dream, what I'm ranting about is being selfish; I'm ranting about taking someones slot because you wanted to look like you were "All in" when you really were not.

discus, on 08 December 2009 - 10:41 PM, said:

As a fairly competitive applicant who didn't make the cut for pilot or nav on a fairly competitive board, I whole heartedly agree with this.

Whatever, man. You didn't take a slot from me, I guess. Maybe if I was a little bit better on paper I would have gotten one. But believe me, it pisses me the ###### off to watch you acting like a douchebag talking all this trash about "oh well if I can't be a pilot maybe I just won't serve." Trust me, there were a lot of good people that didn't get picked up that would have given their left nut (if they could get a waiver for it) for that slot you're acting like a little bitch about. That right there tells me your mind was in the wrong place when you applied.

/sour grapes rant

pilothoper, on 11 January 2006 - 06:39 PM, said:

We are doing a waiver right now for this very thing in the Guard. For us it is actually five years as a NAV. Everyone so far has said it is doable as long as you are under 8 years as a NAV. Actually, it is an exception to policy and it is a big deal. It requires several letters, including one from your TAG. It is a major pain, so be prepared to go the mat to get it done.

Nav to Pilot is not that hard (but you need to do your own legwork). You can apply after 2.5 yrs on any active duty board or Palace Chase into the Guard/Reserves. Worked for me anyway.

Pinto, on 18 December 2009 - 03:49 PM, said:

Any other nav turned pilot (or those that attempted) care to chime in? Understanding that you can't apply until 2.5 years into your commitment how early is too early to start asking about applying to UPT? In general, are SQ/GP/WG/CC and peers supportive of dudes that want to make the transition? Do many go into nav training wanting to eventually end up at UPT? I realize that mileage may vary greatly here, just curious. Thanks in advance.