Security Clearance questions

[afthunderchief16]

Do 21AX - Maintenance Officers need TS clearance? I commission in May but haven't heard anything about it yet so I'm assuming not. I figure I'll need it if i'm ever in a hangar with any of our planes.

You don't need it coming out of ROTC but depending on where you end up and what you are working on, they may bump your clearance. As far as I know and talkng to my buddies that are future and current maintainers they are good to go with their secret

[Kanedaa]

So do engineers needs TS then... anymore input on this?

From what I read it was just pilots nav abms and intel folk.

[M2]

So do engineers needs TS then... anymore input on this?

From what I read it was just pilots nav abms and intel folk.

Some engineers have TS/SCI clearances. Matter of fact, you will find folks in many AFSCs other than the ones you've listed that need and have TS/SCI clearances. We have PA folks, comms guys, and a myraid of other Air Force personnel working in the joint organization I am in. It all depends on what jobs you have.

And I believe the majority of aircrew do not have TS clearances. On the other hand, most intel bubbas do...

Cheers! M2

[Guest F16crewdwgg]

Actually, I just called my school and there is a case on file with them. They also said some times the federal agents come in and check, so FYI for all you guys do not mess it up for yourselfs, put all that garabage even from college on the table. Better to not have them blindsided with anything even if it was not that serious.. :)

[Guest MizzNav]

The whole point of those checks is to see if you can be blackmailed. If they find you are hiding ANYTHING, they will wonder why, especially if there is any alcohol involved. Just tell them everything and as long as you didn't kill anyone or share national secrets with a foriegn nationals, you'll be fine.

I had a minor in posession of alcohol, had smoked weed before (highschool), and even had some counseling. Through all fo that, i was just fine. Just disclose it and you'll be fine, if you hide it, watch out, they will find out! They even will go back to your highschool and talk with coaches and teachers, one investigator went into the rec center at my school and asked around the basketball courts about a guy.

Edited November 30, 2007 by MizzNav

[Guest F16crewdwgg]

so basically what im understanding here is; If things that happend to you were in house at your university and never made it state or to a civil court. You do not have to state it on the application. When asked in a personal interview this is where to mention it?

[M2]

so basically what im understanding here is; If things that happend to you were in house at your university and never made it state or to a civil court. You do not have to state it on the application. When asked in a personal interview this is where to mention it?

Honestly, this is such a minor issue that it will probably won't be pursued any further; but if you omit it and it shows up during your background check, things will get ugly as the investigators will wonder what else you have failed to mention. If it meets the criteria of reporting it, then report it. If you have any doubt, report it. Trust me, I know how much asspain is involved if you forget to include something, even during a periodic reinvestigation...

Cheers! M2

[MilitaryToFinance]

I've been "fully" enlisted before and the only difference that i'm aware of is that you are categorized as a different type of reservist (selected reserve, IRR, etc.) and not able to be called to active duty. POC have gone to "basic" (field training ) and ARE enlisted in the "obligated reserve section" (ORS)of the AF reserve. GMC, on the other hand, are not bound by the UCMJ since they haven't gone to basic and signed the forms, etc.

If you are a GMC, IRR rules apply. If you are a POC, you are not in the IRR anymore, you are in the ORS.

EDIT: UCMJ may only apply while "on duty", but it still applies.

This is from an Army ROTC source but I don't see why they would be any different than an Air Force ROTC Detachment.

"ADMINISTRATIVE

5-1 Cadet Status.

a. Under existing law, ROTC cadets are not subject to UCMJ "

And that is coming from a source on http://www.rotc.usaac.army.mil so its not just hearsay. I found some similar things on ROTC websites but figured those might not be as reliable since you never know if it was written by a Cadet or not.

[spectre56]

This is from an Army ROTC source but I don't see why they would be any different than an Air Force ROTC Detachment.

"ADMINISTRATIVE

5-1 Cadet Status.

a. Under existing law, ROTC cadets are not subject to UCMJ "

And that is coming from a source on http://www.rotc.usaac.army.mil so its not just hearsay. I found some similar things on ROTC websites but figured those might not be as reliable since you never know if it was written by a Cadet or not.

Hey, your right. Found the AF one here.

Attachment 2, paragraph 6

Although I am enlisted in the Obligated Reserve Section (ORS) of the USAF Reserve, I am regarded as a civilian under the military justice system, so long as I retain my cadet status, and as such, am not subject to the provisions of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

[Right Seat Driver]

Once I was told I was picked up for a slot I had 14 days to file the paperwork. A little over a fourteen months later I had my TS, but the investigation didn't start until a year after the application started because of paperwork snafus at OPM, they put a rush on the investigation.

When the investigator met with me she had my Secret application instead of my TS app, so I had to fill in the details that had changed between my Secret and my TS investigations. Luckily, I had brought a copy of my SF86 for my TS and my Secret so I was able to get everything ironed out at the first meeting without too much effort.

Be honest and open, they asked me questions about things that had happened that I had forgotten about like high school teachers and bosses that I had at jobs during high school.

Don't stress, remember everyone has skeletons in their closets.

Edited December 2, 2007 by awol406

[afnav]

For polygraphs, straight SCI probably won't get you hooked up unless you are investigated.

If you are "read in" to anything, you will sign a consent form. If you don't know what that means, don't worry about it.

[Herk Driver]

For polygraphs, straight SCI probably won't get you hooked up unless you are investigated.

As stated, your standard SCI does not require a polygraph.

M2 was right with respect to certain jobs or organizations requiring a polygraph though.

[KWings06j]

A few more questions... do engineers ever need to get a TS?

Also... i read somewhere that under the uniform code of military justice that testing for drug use within ROTC is not allowed.... is this true?

There are many cases where engineers need TS. A friend of mine lost his pilot slot (medical) and was able to get an awesome engineering assignment because it required a TS clearance and he already had his.

As for the drug tests... my det never did them so I don't know if there allowed or not. However, the navy det at my school did them regularly (especially if you screwed up / pissed off one of the Cadre). They usually had a half-dozen people or so get tested every week or two.

[M2]

There are numerous ways to lose your security clearance; but if you apply a little common sense (easier said than done for some people), you really have nothing to worry about. Not commiting any felonies would be a good general rule; and if you find yourself in any kind of hot water, the best thing to do is to make your situation known to your chain-of-command as soon as possible. They prefer to hear it from you than the police, creditors, etc.; and will do everything possible to try to help you through it. Clearances are expensive and time-consuming to conduct, it is in their own best interests not to have someone lose one over circumstances that could have been easily avoided!

Cheers! M2

[Guest ATB]

I was made aware of this last night as I was completing the ass-pain of writing down every job I've had over the past 10 years - wanted to pass it on fwiw...

Next mth, I'm going to Mexico for a week-long vacation with my wife and her side of the family. I'm submitting my SSBI on the website PRIOR to leaving for my trip. When I submit it, it will reflect that I will soon be traveling to Mexico and will reflect the future dates. Why? Because when it's reviewed and when I'm investigated, the trip will have already taken place (and so I will have already taken a trip outside of the U.S. and must check off that "box" in the affirmative)!

Amazing...

Also, do they really talk to every single employer you've had over the past 10 years or just the most recent one?

[magnetfreezer]

Also, do they really talk to every single employer you've had over the past 10 years or just the most recent one?

During the investigation my senior year, I got calls from people I hadn't seen since freshman year of high school that were contacted by the OPM guys. During the interviews with people you put down, they even get the names of other people who know you and interview them as well to provide a cross-check on you hiding any bad references.

[spectre56]

During the investigation my senior year, I got calls from people I hadn't seen since freshman year of high school that were contacted by the OPM guys. During the interviews with people you put down, they even get the names of other people who know you and interview them as well to provide a cross-check on you hiding any bad references.

To add to that, when they were doing my investigation, the guy came to my apartment and knocked on everyone's doors who lived around me (I don't know anybody) and left business cards for them to call him about me. One of my neighbors saw me and asked if I was in trouble with the law. Nope, just going back into the military!

[Gravedigger]

Also, do they really talk to every single employer you've had over the past 10 years or just the most recent one?

They only go back to your 16th birthday....which for some of us that was only 6 years ago. But if you are 26 or older, yes. There are some exceptions, like closed businesses, or they were able to obtain enough info without physically visiting the place. You will be surprised who they get in touch with...

[Guest Codename46]

Hey everyone,

One of the NCOs at my detachment called me and told me that because I'm a dual American-Canadian citizen, I need to renounce my Canadian citizenship and submit evidence that I renounced my citizenship on my SF86, which I need to turn in in order to go to field training.

I did some online research on the subject, and emailed back my NCO asking her whether surrendering the foreign passport would be a substitute, because, according to AFI 31-501, dual-citizen applicants for security clearance need not renounce citizenship, but a statement stating a willingness to renounce along with surrendering of passport is required. The NCO stated that while the AFI is an official document that spans the whole AF, lower levels and MAJCOMS (in this case, AETC), can implement different requirements that suit their needs. An e-mail was sent to the Superintendent of Cadets at AFROTC HQ, and the Superintendent confirmed that my NCO was correct.

I surmise AETC and especially AFROTC HQ got sick and tired of the long administrative delays caused by prolonged investigations into the records and history of cadet applicants of security clearances who are dual-citizens, which is why they're requiring all dual-citizens to renounce citizenship.

My qualms with renouncing citizenship mainly has to do with the fact that the renouncement process itself will take at least a year, and all the paperwork I have to fill out and submit is just days more worth of delays, days I may not have because my scheduled FT session is Maxwell 4 (June 27th), as well as my slight personal reluctance to renounce (other dual-citizens will understand why). Any help and suggestions would be appreciated.

[Herk Driver]

Hey everyone,

One of the NCOs at my detachment called me and told me that because I'm a dual American-Canadian citizen, I need to renounce my Canadian citizenship and submit evidence that I renounced my citizenship on my SF86, which I need to turn in in order to go to field training.

I did some online research on the subject, and emailed back my NCO asking her whether surrendering the foreign passport would be a substitute, because, according to AFI 31-501, dual-citizen applicants for security clearance need not renounce citizenship, but a statement stating a willingness to renounce along with surrendering of passport is required. The NCO stated that while the AFI is an official document that spans the whole AF, lower levels and MAJCOMS (in this case, AETC), can implement different requirements that suit their needs. An e-mail was sent to the Superintendent of Cadets at AFROTC HQ, and the Superintendent confirmed that my NCO was correct.

I surmise AETC and especially AFROTC HQ got sick and tired of the long administrative delays caused by prolonged investigations into the records and history of cadet applicants of security clearances who are dual-citizens, which is why they're requiring all dual-citizens to renounce citizenship.

My qualms with renouncing citizenship mainly has to do with the fact that the renouncement process itself will take at least a year, and all the paperwork I have to fill out and submit is just days more worth of delays, days I may not have because my scheduled FT session is Maxwell 4 (June 27th), as well as my slight personal reluctance to renounce (other dual-citizens will understand why). Any help and suggestions would be appreciated.

I think this has been discussed before. Do a search.

However, an email is not policy. You said, "The NCO stated that while the AFI is an official document that spans the whole AF, lower levels and MAJCOMS (in this case, AETC), can implement different requirements that suit their needs."

Ask to see the policy letter or official document that "suits their needs".

[Guest Codename46]

I think this has been discussed before. Do a search.

However, an email is not policy. You said, "The NCO stated that while the AFI is an official document that spans the whole AF, lower levels and MAJCOMS (in this case, AETC), can implement different requirements that suit their needs."

Ask to see the policy letter or official document that "suits their needs".

Ahh, forgot to link the original doc my NCO posted.

IAW AFI 36-2011

IAW AFI 36-2011, para. 4.17.2. Dual Citizenship. Cadets who hold dual citizenship with a foreign country could be ineligible for a security clearance. It will be necessary for them to denounce their citizenship with the foreign country through the state consulate. Documentation received from the consulate once citizenship has been denounced must be included when submitting clearance paperwork.

http://uwacadweb.uwyo.edu/EAC/Publications/36-2011.pdf

Like I mentioned earlier, it directly contradicts the statements in AFI 31-501, yet my NCO insisted that AFROTC 36-2011 takes priority.

ETA: The document my NCO posted isn't actually AFI 36-2011, which mentions nothing about dual citizenship, and instead is AFROTCI 36-2011.

I also did a search on this site and found a cadet from another detachment had the same problem as me. However he's an AS100 whereas I am an AS200 and awaiting going to FT.

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index...showtopic=10209

From a PM:

Well, I'm an AS100 and I contracted in Feb, so I haven't done my security clearance paperwork yet. However, my NCO did a ton of digging and found pretty much every reg the AF has on security clearances (though I don't remember seeing any DoD Money Memorandum...mind linking that to me?). The conclusion is...its confusing. I'm gonna submit my paperwork this fall, and this is our plan: submit the normal paperwork, along with a copy of my expired UK passport (it expires this Sept) and a statement saying that I have not and have no intention of renewing my UK passport. I'm also going to submit a copy of my US passport showing that all the international travel I've done since receiving my US passport was done on my US passport and not my UK one. Finally, I'm going to submit a statement explaining why I want to keep my dual citizenship (which I still have to come up with a good reason for...). In this statement, I'm going to reference AFI-31-501 and quote the section saying that having dual-citizenship isn't an automatic disqualification for Secret. We'll see if all that works.

I'm going to have to submit my paperwork pretty soon, and filling out the long application for citizenship renunciation is a pain. Any suggestions on what I do?

Edited May 28, 2008 by Codename46

[Guest Cap-10]

From AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 31-501 / 27 JANUARY 2005:

5.7. Dual Citizenship. A security concern could exist when a military member, DoD civilian, contractor,

or consultant is submitted for a personnel security investigation and they are a dual citizen and/or possess/

use a foreign passport.

5.7.1. Dual Citizenship. Dual citizenship in and of itself is not an automatic disqualifier for security

clearance eligibility. However, possession of dual citizenship and particularly the exercise of dual citizenship

is a condition that raises a security concern and may be a disqualifying factor in a security

clearance eligibility determination. There are factors that could mitigate the maintenance of dual citizenship,

as outlined in DoD 5200.2-R, App I, Foreign Preference. An individual’s expressed willingness

to renounce dual citizenship is one of the conditions that could mitigate security concerns.

5.7.2. Possession or Use of a Foreign Passport. Possession and/or use of a foreign passport in preference

to a US passport raises doubt as to whether the person’s allegiance to the US is paramount and

could also facilitate foreign travel unverifiable by the US. The security clearance will be denied or

revoked, unless the applicant surrenders the foreign passport or obtains official approval for its use

from SAF/AA. Requests for approval are forwarded through respective Information Security Program

Manager (ISPM) channels to HQ USAF/XOS-FI for processing to SAF/AA. Justification must

include what benefit the AF will gain from a person holding a foreign passport. AFCAF will annotate

approvals in the remarks field of the JPAS.

Just posting the source for what you have already stated: willingness to renounce citizenship and need to turn in foreign passport.

From AFROTC INSTRUCTION 36-2011 / 2 DECEMBER 2005:

4.17. Security Clearance

4.17.1. All contract cadets must have an open security clearance before they can be commissioned. Cadets without prior service must have a national agency check, local agency check, and credit check (NACLC). Cadets with prior service must have at least an NACLC.

4.17.2. Dual Citizenship. Cadets who hold dual citizenship with a foreign country could be ineligible for a security clearance. It will be necessary for them to denounce their citizenship with the foreign country through the state consulate. Documentation received from the consulate once citizenship has been denounced must be included when submitting clearance paperwork.

My first gut reaction is that whoever wrote this reg, poorly assumed that turning in the passport (from the original reg) = de-nouncing citizenship, i.e. a poor attempt at para-phrasing the parent reg. Even if's that the case, I don't know how you could prove it.

If that's not the case, then I got nothing else. Your NCO is correct in the fact that sub-ordinate commands / units can always plus up the parent reg and become more restrictive, but never less. The AFROTCI was also written in Dec 05, 11 months after the parent AFI, so you can't even argue that the AFROTCI is referencing and older version of the parent AFI.

Good luck.

Cap-10

[Archa3opt3ryx]

For the US/UK folks: it turns out that you can resume your British citizenship once in your life after having renounced it. So give it up during your military service if necessary, then resume it when you get out. Other countries may have similar provisions.

http://bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitize...eupnationality/

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishc...nofcitizenship/

[MassMapleLeaf37]

Has any Dutch/US citizens dealt with joining the military and getting their security clearance?

I'm applying to guard units and if selected, I'd like to retain my dual citizenship.

From my understanding, once someone renounces their Dutch citizenship they lose it forever.

Hoping there's a loophole somewhere.....

Still searching on my end

[Guest Stopher]

Do KC10 pilots have to get a Top Secret Clearance?