37 replies to this topic

[GearMonkey]

First things first. Check out AFI48-123 and the waiver guide (Google should get you there) to learn all there is to know about tubes and ear drums. It won't take you long to know more, from an administrative perspective, than most of the medical techs, some of the docs, and virtually anyone in your chain of command.

If you find out that a waiver is not an option you can get started on an ETP. A good rule of thumb is that if a condition is waiverable for folks who are already pilots/navs you have a decent case for an ETP. There is limitied guidance available for ETPs but everything I've seen is geared towards being too old for UPT. You'll follow the same basics. The ETP goes up your chain of command and eventually gets routed to the Vice Chief of Staff. I'm basing all this off my personal experience in 2004 so things may be slightly different now.

My ETP package included:

A Staff Summary Sheet (any exec can help you with this part)
A memo explaining the situation and requesting an ETP
Letters of support
Medical documentation
Etc.

I can't remember for sure but a copy of my UPT application may also have been required.

I was on active duty in AFMC when I worked through all of this and I think that was a big help. Doing it through AETC is probably an order of magnitude more difficult. What is your status?

[WeMeantWell]

Fuse, on 15 July 2009 - 01:44 PM, said:

Well I've pretty much given up, as no one I've talked to can help me out so far... If someone does have some info for ETP from a civillian once a waiver is denied, please shoot me a PM. Thanks

FWIW, I have heard enough "Stories"... If you shouldn't fly with it, then you shouldn't fly with it. If it is a semi-illogical rule then you have a better chance. Gearmonkey gave you the documents to make it happen, now it is up to you to decide how much red-tape "pain" you are willing to deal with. If this is what you want and blood, sweat, and tears are worth it, then get with your recruiter, have him find someone you can work with (or the recruiter himself) put together those documents, make yourself look like someone worth fighting for, you paperwork better show that you walk on water and the AF would be silly to pass on you. Call every day, visit in person when you can, type as much of the documents up as you can and have them forward them up (any AF office knows what a SSS is, and the routing is simple, straight up the chain)

No one cares about this 1% of what you care about it, so they will not lift a finger for you, unless you give them the tools to help you. Tell them, this is how it is done, lets make it happen, instead of "How do I do it?"... That all being said, it is a gamble of your time, unless you truely walk on water... from many stories, you don't mess around with ear, nose, and throat problems when you fly airplanes, the pain you receive is not worth it. Ask your doc to take them out if he thinks it is justified, let them heal and then re-apply... The worse thing about the military is no one person knows all the rules, the best thing about the military is no one person knows all the rules, so you keep asking until someone gives you an answer you like.

[ȘÅİňŦ]

Okay, thread revival time.

I Just got DQ'd at the beginning of Phase II in UPT (Herniated Disc, had back surgery, outcome good.) and it looks like I'm going to need to put together an ETP package in order to continue training (Waiver available for FCII, but not FCI). My supervisor back at my guard unit has some people looking into what an ETP is and how it works, but I figured I'd get on the ball and start getting everything ready.

Here's the issue. I've found information from both the USAFA (USAFAI36-2205) and AFROTC (AFROTCI36-2011) with great, detailed information on submitting a MEDICAL ETP to the CSAF. Additionally, I found some good information on submitting a regular AF ETP (Age Waiver) in AFI 36-2205.

Is this info valid in my case? I have a hard time believing my commander would want to endorse something based on an USAFAI or an AFROTCI (That references CADETS), and the AFI 36-2205 (Attachment 2.3) is specifically focused on the Age Waiver.

Am I missing an AFI? I find it hard to believe that Medical ETPs are not outlined in some general AFI somewhere. Even something as simple as "ETPs are a Line issue, and not medically related" to give to my units flight doc, who's burning the midnight oil trying to find out waiver info.

I feel like I have a good handle on what's required (based on the USAFA and AFROTC info), and who it goes to (Based on the AFI) - but I don't know how to present it to my guard unit in a way that makes sense.

Thanks Baseops!

[GearMonkey]

ȘÅİňŦ, on 06 October 2011 - 03:41 PM, said:

Am I missing an AFI? I find it hard to believe that Medical ETPs are not outlined in some general AFI somewhere. Even something as simple as "ETPs are a Line issue, and not medically related" to give to my units flight doc, who's burning the midnight oil trying to find out waiver info.

Based on my experience (6-7 years ago now) those are the only references out there. The only mention of ETPs I ever saw was the age waiver reference in the 48-123. This tells you (sort of) how to submit the ETP but doesn't offer much further detail. I suspect this is done on purpose to weed people out and decrease the workload for USAF/HQ and USAF/SG.

Basically the ETP consists of a SSS (look in the T&Q) with a variety of attachments. I wrote a memo explaining my case, included letters of support (from my chain of command, former PASs, my Congressman), and provided extensive medical documentation (exam results, letters from civilian doctors/specialists, and copies of the less stringent standards used by the Navy/Army/FAA). It took about six months for the ETP package to work up the chain and get approved.

Hope this info helps. I think that already being at UPT will be helpful since it is cheaper to keep you there than PCS you again.

[ȘÅİňŦ]

Great info GM - thanks a ton.

[PK...]

Revival #2

Anyone know the standard routing flow for ETP waivers? I'm wondering who is considered "in the chain" once the SSS package goes past the Wing Commander. I know the Key players (NAF/CC, MAJCOM/CC, AF/CV, AF/CC) ... but does anyone know what offices are needed in-between those guys?

Unfortunately, I find myself having to possibly go through this. I am half an inch under the sitting height; and even though I exceed the standing height, AETC is not giving me a waiver, or allowing me the opportunity to do a Functional Cockpit Check. This is because they say that I have been coded by their computer evaluation system as "red/unsafe" for Air Force aircraft based on a few of my other measurements (Sitting-knee height, buttock-to-knee length, standing shoulder height, sitting-eye height, arm span, and functional arm reach). I'm guessing that since I am half an inch low on sitting height, I am probably a little below the sitting-eye height and maybe even the shoulder height.

This whole thing is a little confusing for me, the flight doc, and most of my leadership out here because if the minimums are 64" standing, and 34" sitting... and I measure at 66" standing, and 33.5" sitting; how is it that I am not at the very worst "yellow/marginal" according to their system? Am I so far out of limits than those that just meet the standards that I go straight from green to red? Keep in mind that if one just meets the minimum standing and sitting height, they do not have to take the additional measurements. On top of that, there are multiple others in the squadron that hover around 62/63" standing & 34/33" sitting ... they are all currently on height waivers. The AETC system is even more confusing because I am physically taller/bigger than all of them. AETC is standing their ground on the integrity of their program and telling me that everyone else's extra measurements are good enough according to their system but mine aren't... end of story. They say that my only chance of starting UPT is getting an ETP from the CSAF. (I am on casual status at NAS Whiting right now).

I'd appreciate help from anyone that has been through an ETP or seen one before. I can do up the SSS and everything required, but I don't know the exact path on how to get it to the big boss. If anyone has pointers on the process, I'd appreciate that too. I have done measurements with the Navy and I am green in all areas. Right now, I'm asking AETC to let me do a cockpit check for the sole purpose of this ETP waiver. I am hopeful that if I include good results from a cockpit check, along with my successful Navy anthro, it might help my situation a little better.

Thanks folks.

---
PK...

[Daredevileng1]

GearMonkey, on 09 October 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

Based on my experience (6-7 years ago now) those are the only references out there. The only mention of ETPs I ever saw was the age waiver reference in the 48-123. This tells you (sort of) how to submit the ETP but doesn't offer much further detail. I suspect this is done on purpose to weed people out and decrease the workload for USAF/HQ and USAF/SG.

Basically the ETP consists of a SSS (look in the T&Q) with a variety of attachments. I wrote a memo explaining my case, included letters of support (from my chain of command, former PASs, my Congressman), and provided extensive medical documentation (exam results, letters from civilian doctors/specialists, and copies of the less stringent standards used by the Navy/Army/FAA). It took about six months for the ETP package to work up the chain and get approved.

Hope this info helps. I think that already being at UPT will be helpful since it is cheaper to keep you there than PCS you again.

PM Sent

[capt4fans]

OK, quick question that I don't entirely have time to find, and haven't done the best searching for on my own, so call me a slacker. I was DQ'd last year for a neurologic disorder. I'm currently appealing that DQ thanks to the head flight doc at my local base. My question is, if the AF denies my appeal, can I work and ETP? Or am I out of luck even though they're DQ'ing someone with 6 years of pilot service, and almost 13 years of aircrew service.

Thanks for the help and standing by for arrow to tell me to search more.

[deaddebate]

An ETP will always trump a waiver, and it may end up being tracked by the waiver system (AIMWTS) in the end. Note though that MAJCOM is usually the approval authority, so the appeal / ETP is likely going to AF/SG, which is probably going to take a long time.
Also, when you submit a medical package that high, they HEAVILY scrutinize packages. Don't be surprised if they ask for additional/repeat exams that other physicians might think are overkill.

[deaddebate]

New Guidance Memorandum for AFI 36-2101 solidifies ETP processes a little bit. Below is an excerpt:

Quote

AFI36-2101_AFGM1
[...]
(Replace) 3.7. Waiving Mandatory Requirements. Mandatory requirements for awarding AFSCs may be waived in extremely rare instances for individuals possessing exceptional qualifications determined to be equivalent to the mandatory requirements. Approval authority and procedures to request classification waivers are outlined below and in Tables 3.1. and Table 3.2. A waiver request must start with the individual or the individual’s immediate supervisor. Waiver requests must be fully justified and documented. Only requests that are recommended for approval should be forwarded to the next review level (see paragraph 3.7.5., Table 3.3. and Table 3.4. for processing instructions). NOTE: Procedures to request waivers pertaining to on-the-job training (OJT) time-in-training for AFSC upgrade are contained in Table 3.4.

I saw an ETP in a medical record for the first time the other week, signed by the then Air Force Surgeon General (AF/SG), Lt Gen "Peach" Taylor. The Airman said it took many, MANY months of hard work to convince many different people to get accepted.

[eb287]

I imagine most ETPs are submitted for FC1/1A (?), but are waivers and/or ETPs any more likely to get approved for initial FCIIU or FCIII, especially for a condition which can be shown to be stable and that would not affect safety of flight or mission accomplishment (and IS waiverable for trained aircrew)?

[deaddebate]

Nearly all standards are more lenient for FC II/IIU/III than I/IA, and the waivers become proportionally easier, though these are obviously still much more stringent than general, non-flying enlistment/commission. ETP is entirely outside the medical process, as you'll learn by reading this thread, however that bar would be a little lower if you're shooting for a lower standard, but this is similar to saying that instead of needing to bench press 400 lb.s, you only need to bench press 375 lb.s. ETP's are extraordinarily difficult.
Remember that you need to meet FCI standards for the Initial Flying Class approval to become a Pilot. FCII is for "trained" personnel, already in the AFSC, and only later needing the waiver.