67 replies to this topic

[Chuck17]

IMO my class could have had further losses in Phase 3, but thankfully we escaped having only lost a few to BAC, SIE, and Med DQ in Phase 2. We lost a few due to medical problems as well, mainly they got sick, were DNIF and fell too far behind to graduate on time so they rolled back to another class.

[FUSEPLUG]

What would cause someone to become medically DQ'd during UPT? Isn't the FC1 the big hurdle to get by, and doesn't that happen before UPT?

[C17Driver]

Most that are medically DQ'd during UPT are due to airsickness. There are a few cases of anxiety problems and such.

[Chuck17]

We actually had a guy who Med DQ'd for allergies. At Laughlin, especially during the winter, it can be extremely warm. Thus there is a significant amount of pollen and allergens in the air year round. Specifically, I had major problems with Mountain Cedar (that and mesquite) and was always stuff, especially during Tweets for some reason. Anyway, this guy in my class actually rolled back, then ended up throwing in the towel... tough break, he was a good dude who was supposed to go to A10s at Battle Creek.

[C17Driver]

In the T-37, many students have problems with the pattern. There's a lot that happens in a short amount of time and some have a problem getting used to the flow. The problem usually comes in as a student approaches their first solo. The IP has to feel comfortable with your flying ability. From what I have seen/heard, most of the students that wash out would probably figure it out if they could get 5 to 10 more rides.. But that isn't the way UPT works.

From my experience, the biggest problems students have is forgetting to trim... TRIM TRIM TRIM!

[Bergman]

Seems that inability to monitor airspeed in the final turn, not clearing for traffic (up to 12 Tweets in the pattern at once!), or being so focused on airspeed/altitude that other things start falling out of your crosscheck (radio calls, correct checklist page, etc). That sort of thing. I know that might sound far-fetched (it did to me when all i had was 70 hours in PA-28s/C-172s), but there is a world of difference between a T-37 at 200 knots and a -172. The IPs hold you to a much higher standard. I distinctly remember a "conversation" I had with an Autstralian IP:
Him: "What airspeed are we supposed to be at?"
Me: "200 KNots"
Him: "What airspeed are we at?"
Me: "202 knots"
Him (literally screaming) "Why aren't you *ucking fixing it then!?!!"

Also keep in mind that 10% is about the going rate for washouts, so the vast majority of people are able to get it figured out and succeed.

Hopefully an IP will respond to this thread, as they are the ones who actually know what they're talking about...

[Toro]

Quote

Originally posted by Dan Foster:
can someone elaborate on the basic aircraft control/airmanship washouts? Were they simply bad pilots? or could they just not handle the T-37/1/38?

Speaking as an IP from the T-38 side, I can tell you it that it was a little of both. Only one student was eliminated from 38s while I was at Columbus, but many went to Progress and Elimination Check rides. I flew with some of those, and I flew the PC for the guy who eventually washed out.

There are generally three problems that get guys in serious trouble in 38s. The biggest is general airmanship and situational awareness. This comes from the fact that the T-38 moves much quicker than the 37, and students need to be able to think two steps ahead of the jet. Guys have trouble figuring out where there are in the area, and determing where they'll be after there next maneuver so they can figure out what the following maneuver will be. SA and Area Orientation are the most commonly hookes items on contact and formation check rides.

The next problem is formation maneuvering - close and tactical (6-9K line abreast spacing). The guy in my UPT class as well as the one who washed out at Columbus both had problems with close - just not being able to fly the jet with steady hands when they were in fingertip. Another big problem that was not emphasized enough at UPT when I was an IP and later became an emphasis at IFF was flying tactical. Guys who had wings and were supposed to be learning to fly BFM couldn't do so because they couldn't fly the basic tactical formations that they were supposed to have learned from us.

The final thing is landings. The T-38 has a very fast approach and landing speed and supposedly is the hardest jet in the AF to land. I've seen plenty of guys hook daily and check rides for landings, but I've never seen anybody get washed out. I did, however, see a FAIP go to an FEB for not being able to land no-flaps (after he finished PIT, too).

[Toro]

Metalhead, you're right on with your reasoning of why many students don't wash out. You wouldn't believe what a logistical nightmare it is to try to get rid of somebody who truly does not belong in the cockpit.
As far as your "Girls automatically get back in" statement, I'll concur with that one, too. If anyone doesn't think it's true, I've got specific stories of when it's happened.

Quote

Originally posted by Bergman:
While I agree that 145 at touchdown is pretty quick, aren't the -38s (and most other fighters) usually even faster than that?

Yes they are. It's not the approach speed that makes landing the jet difficult, it's the proximity to the aircraft's stall speed. Because of the 38s small wings, it has a very high stall speed - you are in constant buffet throughout the landing pattern and always very close to stalling. Land a little fast and you'll have to go around or honk on the brakes down the runway. Land a little slow and you'll drop out of the sky and pound onto the concrete.

[Bergman]

"Land a little slow and you'll drop out of the sky and pound onto the concrete" Gee, I bet NONE of us have ever done that! haha I've played "I hate the runway" more than once! In contrast, the -135 is between 20-30% above stall speed in landing configuration, which is a very good thing.

Getting back to topic...

There were defintely a couple of guys in our class that shouldn't have made it through. My only hope now is that a few years as a copilot will bring them up to speed. Fortunately, the weaker guys are usually identified pretty quickly and are paired up with "strong A/Cs" until they get their feces consolidated. The problems start occuring when you have a "weak copilot" with a "weak A/C" (due to scheduling, DNIF, or whatever)...now what? The fact that most squadrons try to schedule around people that shouldn't have made it through UPT in the first place worries me - because, inevitably, that sort of 'safety scheduling' will break down and someone might get hurt. I'm sure the heavy world isn't alone in this - you fighter types see a lot of this?

Lastly - Metalhead...you're right on target. Couldn't agree more. Guess they AF figures that by the time you're in T-1s it's better to get a bad copilot out of the deal rather than spending $1M and getting nothing.

[ 20 February 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: Bergman ]

[hindsight2020]

Generally speaking the answer is no. If you don't complete training you are released as your position was contingent upon successful completion of said training. To wash out academically at UPT, you have to bust three exams and be recommended for disenrollment. I think it is straight up buffonery to fail academically out of UPT but there is a weather test that a lot of people historically fail, and has put a fair share of folks over the magic number and into the elimination process. FWIW that weather test is on it's way out for that particular reason, it was a worthless test anyways. So nowadays it is even more clownish to fail academically.

Medical washout is a more realistic way of disenrolling, but even then they'll work with you. The most common reason is airsickness and it has to be BAD for it to disqualify you. I've seen guys get washed back twice, sent to the voodoo doctor in SPS or RND, come back and puke their way into a freggin jet slot; T-45s for the NAVY but it was at VN in AF training, so the example stands. Others with chronic sinus problems that eventually require surgery get put on a looooong DNIF and still make it. Then again, there are others that do not, but my point is that barring a really bad problem, so long as you pace yourself and give your honest best effort you should be fine with airsickness and/or sinus problems.

Hope that helps.

[hindsight2020]

Well that's what happens when you generalize, you can over-reach. By your standard, you just called out 75% of the Guard Reserve bubbas out there, and practically all the airline dudes. If it makes you feel better, the above specimen (the regional dude fishing for Guard slots) is the minority in terms of getting hired, these folks are historically behind the hiring power curve because of age mostly, as they spent their 20s toiling at the regionals, in that regard I do agree with you. I have no sympathy for the 29 year olds out there who had the "come to Jesus" moment last week, and decided their regional job, or 80K/yr desk jobs, is unfulfilling and are hustling to get someone to waive their sh$t and get in the door. it pays off to do your homework early about the Guard, and if somebody chose the RJ job because of a bad case of SJS, or you partied too hard during freshman year and last week you realized the benefit of getting the freggin' degree done and over with, then sorry you're turning 30 tomorrow. Now, that said, I'm not about to agree with you that everybody who chose not to be 'just anything' for the sake of being enlisted is somehow lacking in their character. I never considered the AD precisely because I had no interest in the qweep that is involved in being a 'pilot' in the active military, and we forego the salary for that decision. That's what being in the AFRC/ANG is about in the first place! That doesn't mean the work we pursue does not have merit, and in my experience Guard/Reserves bubbas chuckle at anything the AD folks have to say about it, since they know who the disgruntled group is. My heart goes out to the TAMI-21 crowd, but you have to do your homework in this world, I never did a day in ROTC while in college and yet I fully understood how someone can go from signing the pilot commitment to sucking sand in a non-flying billet for years, or ending up permanent partied at the Tyco airplane show. Being a crew chief has nothing to do with the self-valuation of your skills; you set the price, I knew that's what I wanted to do and busted my a$$ to get there, and in proper fairness a lot of crew chiefs got jobs at their units in my time interviewing with said units, and I also watched some of the same get non-recommended from IFF in my time at UPT, which is why I try not to generalize.

Besides, I can point you to a couple million american 20-30 yo who sit at home with their 9-5 jobs and generally stay away from the fight and have no intention of giving an ounce of their time to anything military. They generally feel they're above it, and more commonly, feel economically able to avoid it. That classy bunch are yours and my neighbors btw. We're still here voluntarily, in spite of not !GASP! having been a crew chief before getting hired.

Sure, there are plenty of dudes who hang around the unit when the hours are low, and min run the unit when SWA calls, some are not 100% transparent with their fellow civilian FOs at the civi gig and that's a shame, but that's the nature of the beast. Otherwise ,nominally speaking, most dudes in the Guard have an honest appreciation for the work they do, and not having enlisted to get that job generally doesn't get many people riled up. That at least has been my observation so far.

[skinny]

 columbus2LT, on 10 April 2010 - 02:19 AM, said:

So, there have been many rumors and talks by the senior officers here that if you wash out of UPT nowadays, you will be booted from the AF and have to pay everything back (scholarship money, stipends.. dunno about your actual pay)

Anyone confirm/deny or have heard anything relevant???

Do you have something to be worried about?

Caveat, I'm out of my lane here but I haven't heard anything official. As for the booting out of the AF, with the way manning numbers are, it wouldn't surprise me. Easy kill to get down to the congressionally mandated numbers. I highly doubt they would stick you with a bill for scholarships, stipend, etc. It would be funny as shit if they stuck you with a flight training bill too!