Alarm Red speaks the truth.
Me: Viper Pilot, ALO, JTAC
I've never worked with an ABM but I have worked with Eagle fags alongside Buff radar navs, B-1 WSOs, and all the other dudes who ride downstairs. I think Alarm Red's generality about pilot stereotypes and attitudes is fairly accurate. Obviously there are people in all career fields with an aggressive attitude. Your mileage may vary. What he's absolutely correct about is the fact that the Army staff will walk all over you if you let them. And TACPs recognize the difference between career fields and automatically respect fighter pilots more. Right off the bat they respect A-10 dudes, then F-15E/F-16, then F-15 guys. Then probably F-15E WSOs followed by everyone else. They know all the stereotypes as well as you do.
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#41
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Posted 03 June 2009 - 12:29 PM
Gunga-galunga, gunga gunga-galunga
#42
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Posted 03 June 2009 - 01:53 PM
This may be a dumb question from a newb so feel free to delete if I'm just being dumb.
What are Special Tactics Officers for if there are gonna be these non-rated C-ALOs?
They do the same thing? No?
What are Special Tactics Officers for if there are gonna be these non-rated C-ALOs?
They do the same thing? No?
#43
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Posted 03 June 2009 - 02:50 PM
silverwolf0911, on Jun 3 2009, 02:53 PM, said:
This may be a dumb question from a newb so feel free to delete if I'm just being dumb.
What are Special Tactics Officers for if there are gonna be these non-rated C-ALOs?
They do the same thing? No?
What are Special Tactics Officers for if there are gonna be these non-rated C-ALOs?
They do the same thing? No?
Read to find the difference between TACP (and by extension ALOs) and STOs:
http://en.wikipedia....at_Control_Team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacp
#44
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Posted 03 June 2009 - 02:59 PM
Beaver, on Jun 3 2009, 12:49 PM, said:
I've never worked with an ABM but I have worked with Eagle fags alongside Buff radar navs, B-1 WSOs, and all the other dudes who ride downstairs. I think Alarm Red's generality about pilot stereotypes and attitudes is fairly accurate. Obviously there are people in all career fields with an aggressive attitude. Your mileage may vary. What he's absolutely correct about is the fact that the Army staff will walk all over you if you let them. And TACPs recognize the difference between career fields and automatically respect fighter pilots more. Right off the bat they respect A-10 dudes, then F-15E/F-16, then F-15 guys. Then probably F-15E WSOs followed by everyone else. They know all the stereotypes as well as you do.
We all know that these stereotypes exist but it this is type of "eliteism" that is total bullshit. I'm not saying rated guys are better than non rated officers but the "pecking order" of "who gets more respect" with the Army based on how many weapons they have on their bird is crap. I write this as I sit here in Iraq(on a joint assignment) so I believe I can speak frankly about Army/Navy/Marines(I work with them all). You get respect based on experince, first impressions, aptitude, and job knowledge not by the type of plane you fly in. I'm sure many of my buddies who are ALOs(career ABMs) dispelled the statements above flat out cold when they got to their units(many of whom are in OEF).
Beav, I'm not flaming you and I'm sure what you say is the truth but this concept "elitism" just bothers me and as a community(rated Os) we should dispell it. I guess the only way to change the perception is one person at a time, being good at your job, and not tolerating weak shit. I just wanted to point to the fact that just because my jet doesn't have AIM-120s or JDAMS doesn't mean I play W.O.W or eat my boogers.
Edited by sigmanugary, 03 June 2009 - 03:01 PM.
#45
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Posted 03 June 2009 - 04:05 PM
Alarm Red, on Jun 3 2009, 08:53 AM, said:
Everything else being equal, the personality of any given pilot (and even more an Eagle pilot) is infinitely more conducive to good Army relations and good leadership over a mob of rowdy TACPs. Now before anyone launches into a "we're important too" campaign, I'm speaking in generalities. Eagle pilots are generally much more forward than your average weapons director. That's hugely important.
You have to understand a few things - the Army (specifically your peers as an ALO - FSO, S2, S3 - but also unit leadership) responds to directness and assertiveness. If they sense any wavering or weakness - and they will be looking for it in the random new USAF guy - they will walk all over you and back and your credibility is shitcanned. Furthermore, TACPs will be looking at you from day one and deciding if you're the guy who's going to go to bat for them for two years, or if you'll be reinventing their wheel for the next two years (the latter being quite common). They themselves will test this through frequent buffoonery both on and off duty.
As for CAS knowledge - few ALOs end up JTAC qualified, of those the minority will control in combat. Aside from that your knowledge needs to extend to fires and effects - who brings what to the fight and how can it best serve ground commander's intent. The core knowledge isn't anything cosmic and certainly not something that can't be learned in a few months. I maintain the 'no CAS experience' argument against Eagle drivers is flimsy at best. Maintaining rapport with the Army, looking out for your airmen in a deployed environment, and understanding fires and effects are the core skills. In my personal experience Eagle pilots do this better than ABMs. Your mileage may vary.
You have to understand a few things - the Army (specifically your peers as an ALO - FSO, S2, S3 - but also unit leadership) responds to directness and assertiveness. If they sense any wavering or weakness - and they will be looking for it in the random new USAF guy - they will walk all over you and back and your credibility is shitcanned. Furthermore, TACPs will be looking at you from day one and deciding if you're the guy who's going to go to bat for them for two years, or if you'll be reinventing their wheel for the next two years (the latter being quite common). They themselves will test this through frequent buffoonery both on and off duty.
As for CAS knowledge - few ALOs end up JTAC qualified, of those the minority will control in combat. Aside from that your knowledge needs to extend to fires and effects - who brings what to the fight and how can it best serve ground commander's intent. The core knowledge isn't anything cosmic and certainly not something that can't be learned in a few months. I maintain the 'no CAS experience' argument against Eagle drivers is flimsy at best. Maintaining rapport with the Army, looking out for your airmen in a deployed environment, and understanding fires and effects are the core skills. In my personal experience Eagle pilots do this better than ABMs. Your mileage may vary.
Alarm Red,
Thanks for the analysis.
My original question was me only thinking about the technical aspects of the job.
Your assessment of the difference in the communities was actually pretty good and got me thinking (which is difficult at my age...). Obviously, there are individual variations for both F-15 pilots and ABMs, good ones in both, bad ones in both.
But as a community, I agree with your analysis of assertiveness.
Sorry, fellow weapons controllers, er, ABMs. I hope you are some of the good dudes/dudettes, and I hope the community continues to improve, but my opinion - please note the use of the words "my opinion" - is that we don't do a good job of instilling aggresiveness/assertiveness into young'uns. Partly by necessity, a weapons team in a combat support role, i.e., we help vs. a shooter.
Any ABM ALOs here to provide a counterpoint?
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#46
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Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:04 PM
sigmanugary, on Jun 3 2009, 02:59 PM, said:
We all know that these stereotypes exist but it this is type of "eliteism" that is total bullshit.
Unfortunately those stereotypes still exist because people at the "top" of the pecking order benefit from those perceptions, and thus either actively work to keep the system in place or at best passively let it continue to exist to their benefit. The people who bitch about it being wrong, which in my opinion it is, are almost always the ones driving things without pointy noses. When that happens, the people at the "top" scoff and say it's just the "bottom" guys whining or being jealous or whatever. It also doesn't help that most GOs tend to be fighter pilots, thus confirming the idea that fighter pilots are the "best" kind of pilots in the AF, with other pilots coming next, then navs, them ABMs, then everyone else under the sun. I mean, how many ABMs are general officers these days?
Back on topic, if an ALO is gonna be good at his job and at least has 1/2 a pair, it won't matter much what type of wings he's rockin'. And the way it's going with the new 13LX field, it looks like you won't need wings to do the job effectively at all.
Retroactive STS for the references to "top" and "bottom" guys...
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#47 Guest_Joshmoe_*
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Posted 04 June 2009 - 01:48 AM
I'm hoping to get an ALO assignment this cycle...
For folks who have done the job, do you have any advice? I get the "be assertive" thing, but anything more specific? Any particular body of knowledge that'd be good to walk into the job knowing? J-Fire handbook stuff? What kind of PT standard were you looking at?
Beaver, how was it that you got a JTAC qual? I thought that it was pretty rare for the O's to get trained up given limited resources.
Thanks.
For folks who have done the job, do you have any advice? I get the "be assertive" thing, but anything more specific? Any particular body of knowledge that'd be good to walk into the job knowing? J-Fire handbook stuff? What kind of PT standard were you looking at?
Beaver, how was it that you got a JTAC qual? I thought that it was pretty rare for the O's to get trained up given limited resources.
Thanks.
#48 Guest_Alarm Red_*
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Posted 04 June 2009 - 11:40 PM
Joshmoe, on Jun 4 2009, 12:48 AM, said:
I'm hoping to get an ALO assignment this cycle...
It can be a rewarding job, or it can be misery, and a lot of that is out of your hands. It's a crapshoot. Also it's 3 years now instead of 2, and you may run into the 365-fairy during your assignment these days. I wouldn't trade my experience, but I know other people who hated life.
Joshmoe said:
What kind of PT standard were you looking at?
The TACPs will already have their own PT program going. If you are comfortable with the Army PT test you'll be fine. If you're not, they'll just give you shit until you aren't a fatbody anymore (or your 3 years are up). Don't be the guy that makes it mandatory and then never goes (yes they are out there).
Joshmoe said:
For folks who have done the job, do you have any advice? I get the "be assertive" thing, but anything more specific? Any particular body of knowledge that'd be good to walk into the job knowing? J-Fire handbook stuff?
The Army is your customer and your loyalties fall to your airmen. Your job is to meet the customers needs, while realizing they may have no idea, or the wrong idea, how to get there. That's why you are there. Your airmen make it happen for you and you are the last line of shitscreen for them (and it's not a very long line of shitscreens). If you can strike a balance of putting your airmen above everything else while delivering a finished product to your customer, you are successful. Never forget though that you do not work for the Army, and more importantly, don't let them forget that (they will try).
Joshmoe said:
Any particular body of knowledge that'd be good to walk into the job knowing?
If you already know CAS basics (J-FIRE, 3-1.MDS chapter on CAS, etc) then get smart on Army. That's where most people spend the most time playing catchup, and figuring it out downrange is a liability.
Joshmoe said:
Beaver, how was it that you got a JTAC qual? I thought that it was pretty rare for the O's to get trained up given limited resources.
Prior to late 2006, JTAC qual was given as part of ALOQC at Nellis (after follow-on checkride at home station). Late 2006, an AFI change made the requirements the same as for any 1C4 or 1C2, meaning the Nellis JTAQC with follow-on home station controls and checkrides. Yes, there are more limited resources now. Depending on which job you will have it may or may not help you downrange. You squadron, your aligned army unit, and the available resources will dictate the qual.
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 04:03 AM
Anyone know the typical deployment cycle and lifestyle for ALO's?
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#50
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 09:06 AM
Joshmoe, on Jun 4 2009, 06:48 AM, said:
I'm hoping to get an ALO assignment this cycle...
For folks who have done the job, do you have any advice? I get the "be assertive" thing, but anything more specific? Any particular body of knowledge that'd be good to walk into the job knowing? J-Fire handbook stuff? What kind of PT standard were you looking at?
Beaver, how was it that you got a JTAC qual? I thought that it was pretty rare for the O's to get trained up given limited resources.
Thanks.
For folks who have done the job, do you have any advice? I get the "be assertive" thing, but anything more specific? Any particular body of knowledge that'd be good to walk into the job knowing? J-Fire handbook stuff? What kind of PT standard were you looking at?
Beaver, how was it that you got a JTAC qual? I thought that it was pretty rare for the O's to get trained up given limited resources.
Thanks.
Start with Joint Publication 3-09, Joint Fires Support. then know JP 3-09.3, Close Air Support in and out. Also, getting a copy of J-Fire would be great too. The newest version of JP 3-09.3 is in final draft and will be released in the next month or two. There are other pubs if you need more info.
Career ALO is a great idea for all the reasons mentioned in other posts.
As for who makes the best ALO, anyone can be with the right attitude, work ethic, and leadership skills. I think the argument is valid that an A-10 dude STARTS OUT WITH the most knowledge and credibility, but with experience folks wind up on the same playing field.
JTAC's are some of the best guys in the AF and I for one enjoy working with them.
Cheers,
Barney
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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:45 PM
Also they have little handbooks on each airframe. Read up on the airframe capes so you know what to expect.
Agree 100% on the Hawg comment barney. Hawg guys have a better understanding of "army speak" from the word go and its not just knowing how to go from MRGS to WG84 on the MFD.
Agree 100% on the Hawg comment barney. Hawg guys have a better understanding of "army speak" from the word go and its not just knowing how to go from MRGS to WG84 on the MFD.
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Posted 27 August 2010 - 08:58 PM
Not sure what the difference is between the ALO threads but I will add a reply. I'm a bit dated - I did an ALO gig back in 2000-2003. I had to qualify then compete to get to the unit that I ended up getting assigned to. Obviously, it was volunteer. Good experience, like I think Beaver said, a lot of leadership involved. For three years my boss didn't really know what I did. If I needed to be somewhere, I went. I think a lot has probably changed since then.
As far as career progression, I would say that being an ALO does not necessarily hurt your career. I want to qualify that by mentioning that I volunteered to be an ALO, I wasn't handed the assignment. But from observing my career field, it hasn't relatively put anyone behind. You are going to be behind the dude that does a fellowship instead of an ALO tour. That's the way life works. There is nothing wrong with that, if the timing is right and you need to do an ALPHA, consider knocking out an ALO tour. Please do not show up to an Army unit unmotivated. That gives the AF a bad name.
Several years later after my ALO tour, I have a lot of spears to throw at the Army, but in a totally different context. After I left my ALO tour I said "never again" when it came to being surrounded by the Army. But, like all good plans, the enemy has a vote. So now I find myself surrounded once again by the Army. I have considerable compassion for ALOs, I know you are doing the Lord's work, while not being understood or appreciated by the component that you are supporting.
As far as career progression, I would say that being an ALO does not necessarily hurt your career. I want to qualify that by mentioning that I volunteered to be an ALO, I wasn't handed the assignment. But from observing my career field, it hasn't relatively put anyone behind. You are going to be behind the dude that does a fellowship instead of an ALO tour. That's the way life works. There is nothing wrong with that, if the timing is right and you need to do an ALPHA, consider knocking out an ALO tour. Please do not show up to an Army unit unmotivated. That gives the AF a bad name.
Several years later after my ALO tour, I have a lot of spears to throw at the Army, but in a totally different context. After I left my ALO tour I said "never again" when it came to being surrounded by the Army. But, like all good plans, the enemy has a vote. So now I find myself surrounded once again by the Army. I have considerable compassion for ALOs, I know you are doing the Lord's work, while not being understood or appreciated by the component that you are supporting.
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#54
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:12 PM
LoadClear, on 29 January 2011 - 12:39 AM, said:
6. Physical Requirements: All applicants must be medically qualified. ALO training involves a highly demanding physical program, that includes regular physical training events, obstacle course completion, and marching with 25-40 lb packs. Prior to being accepted you must successfully complete the TACP Physical Ability and Stamina Test. All candidates must meet the following minimum standards:
-Run: 1.5 miles in under 11:41
-Push-Ups: 39 push-ups in 1 minute
-Crunches: 45 crunches in 1 minute
-Pull-ups: 2 pull-ups in 1 minute
The TACP PAST is harder now, it changed in January of this year. (unless ALO's aren't held to the same standard as romad's) The run needs to be a 1.5 in 10:47, more calisthenics, etc. Looks like fun!
#55
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Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:58 AM
The 13L AFSC has been around for a few years now, are they still pulling studs out of the cockpit?
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Posted 06 June 2013 - 05:43 PM
From the ACC/A3FC Facebook page
Quote
ACC/A3FC TACP/ASOC Integration Branch
May 10.TO: MAJCOMS, FSS/CCs MPS/Chief, MPS/Supt
SUBJECT: Volunteers for the 13Lxx Air Liaison Officer (ALO) Career Field -
Summer 2013 selection announcement
1. The Air Force is seeking highly motivated candidates who are interested
in becoming a 13L ALO. Applications are now being accepted. Candidates who
are selected this cycle will attend Phase II ALO Aptitude Assessment (AAA)
scheduled for 3-7 Aug...ust 2013 at Jacks Valley, USAF Academy, Colorado
Springs, CO. This announcement is for ROTC and USAFA cadets who are
graduating in Calendar year 2013 and 2014, USAF cross flow officers and
Initial Skills Training Reclassification (IST) Candidates. OTS candidates
may apply for the Air Force OTS board (see pp 3.d below for more info).
2. Suspense for applications: 20 Jun 2013. Email applications to ACC/A3FC
workflow at: acca3fc.jid@langley.af.mil
3. To View eligibility and criteria copy and paste the following myPers
link: (https://myPers.af.mi...tail/a_id/24135)
4. POC is ACC/A3FC, DSN 574-8384 e-mail acca3fc.jid@langley.af.mil
May 10.TO: MAJCOMS, FSS/CCs MPS/Chief, MPS/Supt
SUBJECT: Volunteers for the 13Lxx Air Liaison Officer (ALO) Career Field -
Summer 2013 selection announcement
1. The Air Force is seeking highly motivated candidates who are interested
in becoming a 13L ALO. Applications are now being accepted. Candidates who
are selected this cycle will attend Phase II ALO Aptitude Assessment (AAA)
scheduled for 3-7 Aug...ust 2013 at Jacks Valley, USAF Academy, Colorado
Springs, CO. This announcement is for ROTC and USAFA cadets who are
graduating in Calendar year 2013 and 2014, USAF cross flow officers and
Initial Skills Training Reclassification (IST) Candidates. OTS candidates
may apply for the Air Force OTS board (see pp 3.d below for more info).
2. Suspense for applications: 20 Jun 2013. Email applications to ACC/A3FC
workflow at: acca3fc.jid@langley.af.mil
3. To View eligibility and criteria copy and paste the following myPers
link: (https://myPers.af.mi...tail/a_id/24135)
4. POC is ACC/A3FC, DSN 574-8384 e-mail acca3fc.jid@langley.af.mil
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