186 replies to this topic

[HiFlyer]

DavisAF, on 21 July 2010 - 10:18 PM, said:

I just finished with IFS and washed out of the program with 3 rides left to go. I had a quick question. Basically I was inconsistent with landings, some day's when it was calm I was golden but then I would get a ride with high winds and in the afternoon and the landings were not fair. Anyway, needless to say I washed out for flying and was later offered an ABM position. My main question would be, is it possible to ever get back a pilot slot after you've washed out of IFS. I've heard a lot of information regarding this and want to know if anyone on here has heard of it actually occuring.

Also, if there is a chance at all, is there an afsc that would give me the best advantage when going against the AD board?Just curious, I know it's a long shot but I'm not ready to give it up yet.

edit: moderators please move this to the IFS thread. I thought the new topic would remain attached to the thread I was already in.

The last official thing I know of said that once washed out of a DoD military pilot training program, there was no re-admittance rergardless of the Service. That did not preclude entrance to another rated program (CSO/Nav or ABM) if the Service wished to admit you, but no pilot training program. Whether or not they've changed that policy I can't say. I doubt it, though.

[WheelsOff]

Rox, on 17 October 2010 - 12:40 AM, said:

I'm a pilot select and will be heading to OTS this January (2011). I downloaded the Diamond BOLDFACE and OPS limit files from DOSS Aviation website. Does anyone have any other usefull publications for IFS (such as flight procedures, checklist, departure/arrival procedures, charts of the practice area, etc.)?

Thanks!

They keep a pretty tight lid on that extra material - everyone is issued that stuff during academics. Sorry. Just know the boldface/ops limits by the time you show up and help your flightmates get it figured out quick so you can get out of your blues and into your bags.

[Ramathorn]

So what sort of parameters apply to the DA 20 in the overhead? A 1000' descent from the perch would seem to build up a ton of airspeed on that plane. What kind of combination of speed, bank, and altitude make for a successful pattern in the Eclipse? I've always wondered.

Ramathorn

[WheelsOff]

Ramathorn, on 17 December 2010 - 08:10 PM, said:

So what sort of parameters apply to the DA 20 in the overhead? A 1000' descent from the perch would seem to build up a ton of airspeed on that plane. What kind of combination of speed, bank, and altitude make for a successful pattern in the Eclipse? I've always wondered.

Ramathorn

Pattern altitude is 800' - 60 KIAS from downwind/perch to final. Angle of bank varies depending on a number of factors. It's a military pattern so you aren't squaring off your crosswind and base legs.

[WheelsOff]

Again, the bank angle depends on different factors such as wind direction/speed and distance from runway, etc. Entry speed was generally somewhere in the ballpark of 90 KIAS; I can't quite remember exactly.

[skinny]

I'm just over halfway done with IFS right now. Just thought I'd pass along that the first full up RPA flight is in my class, I think about a dozen of them. Anyway, their syllabus is about 7 weeks long and includes, solo, VNAV, X-Country, and night sorties. They end up getting around 38-40 hours. I asked if they get a PPL out of the deal and they said no but they can go take the FAA written and practical at an FBO after they leave here and they'd be done.

I know the question regarding RPA IFS was brought up on a different thread but I figured I'd keep the 11 page IFS thread going instead.

Another fun fact, now that RPA guys are coming through here, the classes are huge. I'm in the last class that will not have roomates while we're here. From here on expect two to a room with twin beds. On the bright side, you'll have a flat screen in the room. Downside, you won't have time to watch it. However they are installing windows in all the rooms! No, just kidding, still no windows. Cheers...

[skinny]

KingGuy, on 02 February 2011 - 05:50 PM, said:

I know that a majority of the difficulty is UPT is the "fire hose" effect. And that IFS is designed to be an introduction to that environment. Trying to "slow the "fire hose" effect" is doing an IFS student a disservice in their preparation for UPT, and undermining the excellent intro program that is offered at KPUB.

Agreed. The AF is screening students who can go to IFS and be successful with zero hours as a base line. If you show up with hours or a license, that's all great and everything, but to preempt the AF screening program with an IFS Prep course defeats the purpose of SCREENING. If they just wanted people to be successful, they'd hold your hand and give you as many flights as it takes to make sure the candidate passes the checkride. This is obviously not the case. I understand that you may have a leg up if you can shack a steep turn or plant it on the numbers every time, but all that does is help you get through IFS. Once you hit UPT/UNT/RPA, you start from scratch and the goal of IFS is to identify those that will have a greater chance of success early on so as to avoid dumping loads of training dollars on someone who will never hack it.

[JBueno]

Whoa, IFS is a screening program? Hadn't heard that 300 times when I was there.

[Smokey]

IFS is the program the AF wants and the function is screening those with limited potential to succeed in UPT. There is not one instructor there that doesn't want you to succeed. The fact is, all won't. I can't provide additional training other than the time alloted in the syllabus.

We provide the same training to every student. Yes, the wick does get turned up on studs with prior flight experience. That's how the playing field is leveled so to speak placing them under pressure to learn at an advanced rate. Other than that, all studs are treated/trained equally. Those that have basic flying aptitude and truly apply themselves succeed. It is a fast paced, full throttle program, that is very unforgiving to those that don't focus 100%. Don't expect to be spoon fed. Students are all college grads and commissioned officers. We expect you to take charge in your studies and preparation for each sortie. Don't show up to the table unprepared. The end result is either not flying or better yet, a very painful sortie that was self induced.

If you are curious, even FAA rated CFI's have washed out.

Screening early saves serious bucks. All of us grey beards have designed the day to day activities to match the UFT environment to the max extent possible. When I make UPT base visits, not a single student failed to place value on how well IFS prepared them for UPT. The difference is that unlike UPT where there are some relative peaks/valleys in the work level, IFS is full throttle from day one to day last.

My recommendation to anyone coming to IFS, take advantage of what is as of this post, current IFS info on baseops. Out of that info, know the BF and ops limits cold for day one, begin to review both the IFS Local Flying Procedures (the how you need to do it manual), and the EP Training Guide (the how you save yourself manual).

Cheers, and good luck to all!
Smokey

PS: one caveat, live by the gouge, die by the gouge. Things do change from time to time and the gouge posted could become non-current at any time. However, it is a great place to start.

[Smokey]

WheelsOff, on 18 December 2010 - 12:15 AM, said:

Again, the bank angle depends on different factors such as wind direction/speed and distance from runway, etc. Entry speed was generally somewhere in the ballpark of 90 KIAS; I can't quite remember exactly.

Bank angle on average is only....ONLY 15-20 degrees. Final turns are only at a blistering 60 knots on a "normal" pattern. Downwind is a half mile spacing. Most common stud error....over banking and ending up with a very high, angled final. The Katana turns on a dime at those speeds. The width of the pattern and length of the final approach allow the dissipation of energy/altitude. Worst thing you can do is overbank in the final turn and shorten the path to the runway.

Sure, there may be days when you need more bank. Of course, it is appropriate for overshooting conditions, strong tailwind on the downwind, etc. If not, anyone coming to IFS re-read the above and save yourself the heartache you'll experience.

When learning how to fly or learning a new aircraft, know how to minimize the self induced variables. Use a bit of a mechanical approach and follow the recipe/technique you are offered initially to accomplish the goal. No, I won't grade you on any technique, I'll grade you on the end result of what you performed. You have plenty of time to develop your own techniques....probably not during IFS though.

The key to a great landing begins on how you set up your downwind, then when you elect to configure, then when you perch, how well you fly the final turn to final, and then how stable you fly the final approach. Landing issues almost always go back to one of the prior steps and poor execution.

That being said, if you want to fix two more variables (high/angled) along with everything else, have at it. Otherwise, you want to try and minimize your variables and create the same situation every time. Set up consistently for success in execution.

For anyones benefit, normal approaches are 60 knots, no flap are 65 knots, and SFL's are 73 until slowing and lowering flaps when landing assured. Initial is at 100 knots. Downwind is 85 knots.

Smokey

[CJ-6A]

Smokey, what specific reasons do the prior flight time students generally wash out over?

Edited by CJ-6A, 14 March 2011 - 09:00 PM.

[BFM this]

Smokey, on 13 March 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

If you are curious, even FAA rated CFI's have washed out.

Attitude. To the prior poster: I went to UPT as an MEII with ATP mins met. And I crushed it. What always bugged me though, were the IPs that can't wait to slip the above gem into a conversation.
To be fair, yeah, even I had a fair amount to shake loose in terms of "regardless of what you know, the AF wants it done X way". But at the end of the day: attitude. #1.

[D-ron]

BFM this, on 15 March 2011 - 08:16 AM, said:

Attitude...

2. In fact, the guys in my class with civilian experience were among the top students. Civilian experience will help you in UPT as long as you have the right attitude.

[Smokey]

CJ-6A, on 14 March 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Smokey, what specific reasons do the prior flight time students generally wash out over?

The post above me pretty well sums it up. Attitude and a willingness to learn a new way of flying. Sure some types of civilian flying has a mission to accomplish. That being said, GA flying isn't about a "mission mindset." It isn't something that even comes to mind. Takeoff, kind of fly over there, kind of do all the maneuvers, come home do all the patterns. Sure, there is a civilian PTS standard to operate in just like a syllabus CTS. The difference is it just isn't the fact you stalled and recovered or landed from some type of pattern.

The difference is I'm training you, UPT will, RTU will, etc., to EMPLOY the aircraft towards accomplishment of mission objectives. That means that, especially in a controlled training environment, that you perform the maneuver by the numbers and as written in plan language. No you're not a robot. However, without external factors requiring modification to the baseline, I want maneuver X performed as intended.

Case in point, flying one of the first few rides (first ride with me as well) in the program with a PPL student. Flew a horrendous pattern relative to what we want at one of our aux-fields. No one was in the pattern so I let him just fly it. 1 mile final, square turns to final, etc....not what we do. He did an absolutely beautiful landing and even commented on that fact on the touch and go. Took the airplane for the next pattern and said, yeah great touch down, sadly how you got there was unsatisfactory! Now, let me show you how it is supposed to be done.

Going back about 3 decades, had a stud come to the T-38 from Tweets. CFI prior to UPT. Did only average in Tweets to be honest. Wasn't a team player. Didn't try to work, chair fly, etc., with his buds having issues in that phase. The Tweet didn't really challenge him and he coasted along. Now, let's speed up the world a bit and do so in an aircraft with totally different flying characteristics than he had seen before. Guess what, ate his lunch, couldn't adapt, non of his classmates really offered any help, and he ended up washing out pre-solo in the 38.

You are demonstrating you can learn to employ the aircraft in a consistent fashion so that when I hand you the keys to an operational aircraft you can put it in weapons delivery parameters to make the weapon effective, not just a dropped a bomb or shot a gun, I don't care if it actually worked because I wasn't in the WEZ. Or, putting your C-17 in parameter for an airdrop. Or,..... Yes, in operational flying you have to go "outside the lines" quite often. You get back in as soon as possible because it provides the highest potential to accomplish your mission.

So is how you fly your pattern or set up your stall important...absolutely!

Also, you better do it by the book in an RSU controlled pattern when 10 aircraft are playing on the same runway at the same time. One guy can screw it up for everyone by "freestyle" flying.

Smokey

[CJ-6A]

Smokey, what is your previous flying background if you don't mind me asking.... and what is the general flying background of most of the CFIs at Doss? I've never heard anything bad about the program, so I'm curious about where the instructors are drawn from.

[Smokey]

CJ-6A, on 15 March 2011 - 07:49 PM, said:

Smokey, what is your previous flying background if you don't mind me asking.... and what is the general flying background of most of the CFIs at Doss? I've never heard anything bad about the program, so I'm curious about where the instructors are drawn from.

No problem: in no particular order, U-2, F-16, B-52, T/AT-38, T-37 and indirectly the DA-20, for the military and did 12 years 121 prior to taking a leave of absence to come to DOSS in the AB-320/319 and B-737.

The IP cadre is composed of about 70% prior military and the remaining 30% are very highly qualified civilians who get a full indoctrination into what UPT is like (base visits, ORT rides, etc.). The prior military come from all backgrounds. Heck, I just checked out a new hire that recently retired that was a T-Bird. He's now slugging it out trip turning with IFS studs..... We even have a few retired Navy/Marine pilots as well. Only appropriate given the fact that it is Joint SUPT. It is probably the most experienced instructor force serving AETC.

For any RPA folks surfing the thread, just got handed a new Small Group Test change to the syllabus. Minor tweaks to include only a final check ride. Won't go into the reasons. You also get 2 more rides prior to the solo under the Test in what for them is the "screening" vice "training" portion of the syllabus.

Cheers,
Smokey

[ViperOCF]

Is there wifi available in the rooms at IFS?